Topic: on "intersex" tags.

The tagging of any character that does not fit the binary view of male and female as intersex is incorrect. Intersex people make up 1-3% of the human population, and have sex characteristics between male and female. Popular depictions of "intersex" are in actually incredibly rare or non-existent in animals (humans included). It also makes intersex people feel bad, as it fetishizes and further makes them out to be fantasy, very much like how trans people are fetishized and made out to be fantasy.

Alternative terms you can use:

Altersex or Varsex - for any sex variations outside the norm "alternative" or "variation", includes trans people (if they have or want to medically transition), intersex people and more.

Bigenital/dualsex/salmacian - alternative for hermaphrodite, a term considered a slur by many intersex and trans people when used on those outside of the sex norm for their species, not when used on organisms that are normally like that. dualsex means two sexes, someone who is male and female at once, bigenital refers strictly to the genitals, having a penis, balls and a vulva. salmacian is a reference to salamanders

For herm, female_dualsex or female_salmacian could be used, and for maleherm male_dualsex or male_salmacian

i do like the switch from the slur cuntboy to andromorph.

If anyone else has term suggestions i'd be glad to hear it. i think this would not just make a lot of gender and sex diverse people happy, but improve the sites image in furry fandom.

This seems familiar.

topic #45248
topic #47102
topic #53944

Might be others.

Here goes the 47th debate on this tag
I still maintain that we don't need the umbrella tag and we should just invalidate it

Also, topic #61584 has some of the most recent relevant discussion.

The crux of the problem always seems to devolve down to a fundamental incompatibility between gender identities and E6's quest to make objective tags for as many aspects of visual furry art as possible. Gender identities, by their nature, are subjective, and subjective tags that can be opted out of by artists quickly become useless for blacklisting purposes. They also make tagging itself more complicated, because you now have to check whether one artist has redefined a tag for their work to be different from another. It just doesn't work, which is why E6's non-lore tags try to be sex tags, not gender tags. But E6 is still amiable to these communities, which is why gender lore tags exist.

Now, I have seen plenty of suggestions for alternative tags pop up, but each time, there's at least one person from the non-binary or trans communities that objects to any of the proposed terms. These tags also need to be clear on how to apply them, with objective visual definitions rather than offsite knowledge. Without a solid set of terms that are also easy for those outside the community to remember, E6 won't move to try to change the tags. It's why other problematic tags also haven't seen much movement yet (see topic #40593 for a similar debate on the alias twink -> femboy, as an example).

Finally, changing the names won't change the fact that a lot of these body forms will be fetishized in art here. Fact is, a good portion of art here is porn, including a good amount of art under E6's intersex umbrella. Porn, by its nature, tends to focus on people's fetishes, and some people do view these bodies as part of their fetishes (or wish to block such bodies). There's really nothing E6 can do in that regard to block such actions without, again, going against their mission as a furry art archive.

That's my own summary of the various discussion threads I have seen around these topics, anyway. Check out the linked topics and come to your own conclusion, of course.

Personally I think any conversation like this that does not start with "we are compartmentalizing certain gender phenotypes into convenient categories for ease of searching based on visual characteristics" is a nonstarter. We will not identify women as some form of intersex if they happen to have XY chromosomes.

In the most technical sense, a male with hand-pussies would have similar organs to a maleherm, but that's just not what people are actually looking for if they search for maleherms.

Sometimes a girl is so flat people can't actually tell. andromorph female_(lore) includes a lot of this, but much more masculine examples do actually exist.

Sometimes a guy is so fem people can't actually tell. gynomorph male_(lore) busty_boy_(lore) includes a lot of this, but much more feminine examples do actually exist.

The entire range of sex features, real or fantastical, is not going to be compressed into six categories that are 1:1 with e621's use of gender tags.

To that end, "dickgirl" and "cuntboy" are just porn terms. Straight up. There is no world where we label safe images as either "cuntboy" or "cuntboy_(lore)". Renaming these tags is a completely different story from renaming intersex. We certainly wouldn't label official art of video game characters as "loli" or "shota".

The argument that our use of "intersex" makes people feel bad is not something that is supported merely by the testimony of a single person. Isn't this just invoking the euphemism treadmill? If the argument is that e621 inspires people to use terms like these in certain ways, why wouldn't people on the internet just start describing real intersex people as altersex, varsex, bigenital, dualsex, salmacian, etc. instead?

donovan_dmc said:
Here goes the 47th debate on this tag
I still maintain that we don't need the umbrella tag and we should just invalidate it

I'm still cautious, and now that we have some usage stats we can see that in searches, at least, the tag is used quite a bit. the question remains whether that's just people typing futa into the search box and hitting enter and the alias taking over or people actually searching for posts with any of the 4 intersex categories.

also, just the fact that this is probably a tag used, one way or another, in a bunch of user's blacklist... ehhh... I think we're kinda sunk into keeping it around.

dba_afish said:
I'm still cautious, and now that we have some usage stats we can see that in searches, at least, the tag is used quite a bit. the question remains whether that's just people typing futa into the search box and hitting enter and the alias taking over or people actually searching for posts with any of the 4 intersex categories.

also, just the fact that this is probably a tag used, one way or another, in a bunch of user's blacklist... ehhh... I think we're kinda sunk into keeping it around.

I think the benefit of not having to argue about it anymore far outweighs any potential searching or blacklisting issues that could happen from getting rid of it, which get worse the longer we spend debating rather than actually doing

donovan_dmc said:
Here goes the 47th debate on this tag
I still maintain that we don't need the umbrella tag and we should just invalidate it

+1

As someone who once attempted this discussion, my condolences.

lafcadio said:
Personally I think any conversation like this that does not start with "we are compartmentalizing certain gender phenotypes into convenient categories for ease of searching based on visual characteristics" is a nonstarter. We will not identify women as some form of intersex if they happen to have XY chromosomes.

In the most technical sense, a male with hand-pussies would have similar organs to a maleherm, but that's just not what people are actually looking for if they search for maleherms.

Sometimes a girl is so flat people can't actually tell. andromorph female_(lore) includes a lot of this, but much more masculine examples do actually exist.

Sometimes a guy is so fem people can't actually tell. gynomorph male_(lore) busty_boy_(lore) includes a lot of this, but much more feminine examples do actually exist.

The entire range of sex features, real or fantastical, is not going to be compressed into six categories that are 1:1 with e621's use of gender tags.

To that end, "dickgirl" and "cuntboy" are just porn terms. Straight up. There is no world where we label safe images as either "cuntboy" or "cuntboy_(lore)". Renaming these tags is a completely different story from renaming intersex. We certainly wouldn't label official art of video game characters as "loli" or "shota".

The argument that our use of "intersex" makes people feel bad is not something that is supported merely by the testimony of a single person. Isn't this just invoking the euphemism treadmill? If the argument is that e621 inspires people to use terms like these in certain ways, why wouldn't people on the internet just start describing real intersex people as altersex, varsex, bigenital, dualsex, salmacian, etc. instead?

slippery slope fallacy. Most non-intersex people don't even know intersex people are in fact real beyond bearded women. Also, cuntboy stops being just a porn term when people start calling trans men that in real life.

Another issue is; these are not intersex people. sex organs are made of the same stuff, intersex people with different genital configurations have something between what is considered typical male and typical female for example having a vulva, a very big citrous/penis, and a urethra opening on the underside of it, they only have "both" if they are some rare form of conjoined twin.

forest1985 said:
slippery slope fallacy. Most non-intersex people don't even know intersex people are in fact real beyond bearded women. Also, cuntboy stops being just a porn term when people start calling trans men that in real life.

Another issue is; these are not intersex people. sex organs are made of the same stuff, intersex people with different genital configurations have something between what is considered typical male and typical female for example having a vulva, a very big citrous/penis, and a urethra opening on the underside of it, they only have "both" if they are some rare form of conjoined twin.

Fallacy fallacy. The euphemism treadmill is real. Slurs for intellectual disability were at one point polite ways to refer to it.

No, it doesn't stop being a porn term. Addressing anybody by a porn term is impolite. Call somebody a "snowbunny" or talk about "yellow fever" in polite company and see where it gets you.

These are literally intersex variations. They're fantastical but they're there.

forest1985 said:
Another issue is; these are not intersex people. sex organs are made of the same stuff, intersex people with different genital configurations have something between what is considered typical male and typical female for example having a vulva, a very big citrous/penis, and a urethra opening on the underside of it, they only have "both" if they are some rare form of conjoined twin.

Something to consider with e621 tags is that oftentimes the goal with a tag isn't to be objectively correct. For example, e621's definition of humanoid is objectively wrong (in the real world anthros would be considered humanoid) and feral often includes animals that display full human sentience and civility. We use these terms because they work for the site's needs and for the most part people "get" what they mean, even if they don't line up with the dictionary definition. Not every creature tagged as feral is a wild animal even if that's what the tag looks like it's saying.

(The same logic applies to male and female, for the record.)

eightoflakes said:
Something to consider with e621 tags is that oftentimes the goal with a tag isn't to be objectively correct. For example, e621's definition of humanoid is objectively wrong (in the real world anthros would be considered humanoid) and feral often includes animals that display full human sentience and civility. We use these terms because they work for the site's needs and for the most part people "get" what they mean, even if they don't line up with the dictionary definition. Not every creature tagged as feral is a wild animal even if that's what the tag looks like it's saying.

(The same logic applies to male and female, for the record.)

it's not that they're "wrong", necessarily, just that we're using a diffrent definition.

lafcadio said:
Fallacy fallacy. The euphemism treadmill is real. Slurs for intellectual disability were at one point polite ways to refer to it.

No, it doesn't stop being a porn term. Addressing anybody by a porn term is impolite. Call somebody a "snowbunny" or talk about "yellow fever" in polite company and see where it gets you.

These are literally intersex variations. They're fantastical but they're there.

1 they were never considered polite, terms such as "moron" and idiot" were insults before they were made scientific terms and continue to be insults, same with the r slur. the "euphemism treadmill" as you call it is a natural part of language, words begin to be used in a way either purposefully offensive or in a way that others find offensive and so new words come and so forth, and that is not the only reason words change. language evolves, we aren't speaking middle or old english right now.
2 something being a slur comes before it being a porn term imho
3 if it's fantastical your argument for calling something intersex must be backed up by what intersex variations are in real life, not something like a world where, say, all ponies have penises, because then it isn't intersex, that's just what their species is. like if humans had a subspecies that all grew boobs, that wouldn't be an intersex trait in them, and anyone who didn't grow boobs would be intersex due to a hormone variation that means they don't grow them.

eightoflakes said:
Something to consider with e621 tags is that oftentimes the goal with a tag isn't to be objectively correct. For example, e621's definition of humanoid is objectively wrong (in the real world anthros would be considered humanoid) and feral often includes animals that display full human sentience and civility. We use these terms because they work for the site's needs and for the most part people "get" what they mean, even if they don't line up with the dictionary definition. Not every creature tagged as feral is a wild animal even if that's what the tag looks like it's saying.

(The same logic applies to male and female, for the record.)

i get where you're coming from, but first off animals other than humans are sentient and civility is a social construct, humanoids and anthros are not real and feral is something that can be applied to many groups, such as wild-raised domestic species, aggressive and thoughtless behavior, etc. Intersex is not about how the person looks, it is 'you have traits that mean you can't be considered typically male or female in our binary categorization system of sex we made up and you don't comply with' which can be anything from a higher/lower voice than ~95% of what sex they were categorized as, low hormone levels meaning they appear child-like as an adult, to being close to what is considered "hermaphrodite" in other species.

Most people do not know that intersex people exist or that it is a term, they type in futa or herm and jack off to girls with cocks. When they see intersex, they don't think "oh this is a real group of people" they think "new porn term?" this spreading of intersex the term as a porn category is especially egregious considering how oppressed intersex people are, they are often given unneeded surgeries as children, even babies, to make them fit into a male or female box (which is ironic considering all the fear-mongering about trans kids taking hormone blockers or hormones when they are teens) and in most countries they can't even put intersex on their birth certificate.

donovan_dmc said:
Here goes the 47th debate on this tag
I still maintain that we don't need the umbrella tag and we should just invalidate it

i feel that works better

forest1985 said:
1 they were never considered polite, terms such as "moron" and idiot" were insults before they were made scientific terms and continue to be insults, same with the r slur.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/moron-idiot-imbecile-offensive-history

All three words (moron, imbecile, and idiot) now function as general insults, and all three were formerly used as clinical terms to describe degrees of intellectual disability. The clinical use of each word is now considered dated and offensive.

They were accurate clinical terms to describe peoples' disabilities. They started being used as derogatory names toward people to say they were mentally challenged, not unlike how some people will call someone "autistic" as an insult for having passion about something, despite the clinical meaning of the word not being offensive.

watsit said:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/moron-idiot-imbecile-offensive-history
They were accurate clinical terms to describe peoples' disabilities. They started being used as derogatory names toward people to say they were mentally challenged, not unlike how some people will call someone "autistic" as an insult for having passion about something, despite the clinical meaning of the word not being offensive.

early psychologists were extremely problematic, and the industry still is, although it has gotten better somewhat. they took insults and made them scientific terms, and made up (and continue to make up) diagnoses for those who just don't fit what society wants, such as any form of lgbtq+ identity being considered a sexual disorder, and "hysteria" being ascribed almost exclusively to non-white people, women and anyone who doesn't like society. "Austistic" did not start out as in insult, and as an autistic person i know of this history. what they did with cognitive disability is the equivalent of making "asshole/dick" a disorder instead of anger issues and impulse control issues.

forest1985 said:
"hysteria" being ascribed almost exclusively to non-white people, women and anyone who doesn't like society.

I'm pretty sure that hysteria was a specifically female thing, back when it was a "legitimate medical diagnosis". since, as the name would suggest, it was a diagnosis related to the uterus.

forest1985 said:
1 they were never considered polite, terms such as "moron" and idiot" were insults before they were made scientific terms and continue to be insults, same with the r slur. the "euphemism treadmill" as you call it is a natural part of language, words begin to be used in a way either purposefully offensive or in a way that others find offensive and so new words come and so forth, and that is not the only reason words change. language evolves, we aren't speaking middle or old english right now.
2 something being a slur comes before it being a porn term imho
3 if it's fantastical your argument for calling something intersex must be backed up by what intersex variations are in real life, not something like a world where, say, all ponies have penises, because then it isn't intersex, that's just what their species is. like if humans had a subspecies that all grew boobs, that wouldn't be an intersex trait in them, and anyone who didn't grow boobs would be intersex due to a hormone variation that means they don't grow them.

1. You are factually wrong. Plenty of samples predating the 20th century clearly establish a massively different treatment of words we already consider to be outdated/offensive, especially certain uses that aren't related to disability at all, such as a use in the preface of History of West Australia (1897) by Warren Bert Kimberly. Check Wikisource and search for attestations.

2. These are not mutually exclusive. "Trap" arose from porn-related usage but was since adopted as a slur for real people.

3. No? The general-category male, female, etc. are our personal shorthands for specific sex features first and foremost. We can't claim to know that every "male" character has a penis, or that every "female" character has breasts, but because they're shorthands for certain features and not authoritative statements about the characters, we don't have to definitively know. That's where lore comes in. As such, the "what if" about ponies doesn't apply to us. Not even a little. post #2629971 outright indicates the character is male, but people searching for solo male gardevoir don't want to see this.

I'll also add that the N word was just a literal descriptor originally; it literally was identical to saying someone was "black". Insults & slurs have a wide range of origins, & it's very common for a benign term to be used as an insult. I think we still call it "special ed", but I don't think you'd have to look hard to find people calling neurodivergent people "special" with a far more malicious intent. Hell, even the polite alternatives to certain terms can become insults over time; for example, while it's a far less hurtful term than it's counterpart, you still wouldn't use the term Negro, & for good reason.

Also, as someone who's LGBT, in a community with more LGBT representation than the average population, I'd really prefer you to stop acting like the concept of intersex people is a complete mystery to people; exactly who do you think uses this site?

forest1985 said:
"Austistic" did not start out as in insult, and as an autistic person i know of this history.

Yeah, that's the point. People use real & valid scientific terms to hurt people all the time. Look up phrenology, look at the term psycho (as in "psychosis" or "psychopath"), iirc Borderline Personality Disorder changed to Disassociative Identity Disorder after it's portrayal in media; people will use things meant to help people as cudgels all the time, & we gain nothing from ignoring that fact.

aacafah said:
iirc Borderline Personality Disorder changed to Disassociative Identity Disorder after it's portrayal in media;

You're thinking Multiple Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder is something else and still used.

aacafah said:
I'll also add that the N word was just a literal descriptor originally; it literally was identical to saying someone was "black". Insults & slurs have a wide range of origins, & it's very common for a benign term to be used as an insult. I think we still call it "special ed", but I don't think you'd have to look hard to find people calling neurodivergent people "special" with a far more malicious intent. Hell, even the polite alternatives to certain terms can become insults over time; for example, while it's a far less hurtful term than it's counterpart, you still wouldn't use the term Negro, & for good reason.

Also, as someone who's LGBT, in a community with more LGBT representation than the average population, I'd really prefer you to stop acting like the concept of intersex people is a complete mystery to people; exactly who do you think uses this site?

Yeah, that's the point. People use real & valid scientific terms to hurt people all the time. Look up phrenology, look at the term psycho (as in "psychosis" or "psychopath"), iirc Borderline Personality Disorder changed to Disassociative Identity Disorder after it's portrayal in media; people will use things meant to help people as cudgels all the time, & we gain nothing from ignoring that fact.

i'm lgbtqia+, i'm not acting like lgbtqia+ people don't use this site; as someone who spends a lot of time in queer spaces i know most non-intersex people don't think about intersex people's existence, they don't listen to intersex voices on intersex issues. Being queer doesn't mean you can't be intersexist

also; when did i say psychology was a valid science? it's not. It largely does not use the scientific method. Psychological disorders are not made to help people they are made to categorise.

forest1985 said:
also; when did i say psychology was a valid science? it's not. It largely does not use the scientific method. Psychological disorders are not made to help people they are made to categorise.

What an absolutely insane thing to say

"Diseases are not made to help people they are made to categorize"
That's the same thing you've said, applied more broadly

Psychological disorders are not "created", we apply labels to sets of symptoms/conditions to better narrow treatment/monitoring, that does not in any way make all of it invalid

Agreed on this tag being unnecessary. I don't think the four constituent categories have much audience overlap. In the rare situation where people want to see art of all of those and nothing else, that can be accomplished by just using the "~" operator (when it decides to work anyway, but that's a totally separate issue)

Its usage as a catchall for "any character with mixed anatomy" feels like another weird anachronism that this site already has far too many of

listlesssky said:
"~" operator (when it decides to work anyway, but that's a totally separate issue)

If you have a reproducible bug, report it. Personally, it works 100% for me; the only thing that I can think of is that I'm not 100% sure if it can be combined with * wildcards.

donovan_dmc said:
What an absolutely insane thing to say

"Diseases are not made to help people they are made to categorize"
That's the same thing you've said, applied more broadly

Psychological disorders are not "created", we apply labels to sets of symptoms/conditions to better narrow treatment/monitoring, that does not in any way make all of it invalid

i'm not saying psychological disabilities don't exist i'm saying the way they are made as terms is not done with the intent of helping people but creating categories. I'm not saying they were created BY psychologists i'm saying the terms were made. and they are usually subjective, based on what the psychologists observe; it's like figuring out diseases without knowing about bacteria or viruses or germ theory. (excluding some neuropsychology diagnoses) you can just as easily be diagnosed with ASPD as NPD, and NPD as BPD and HPD, just they tend to be diagnosed more on different types of people. And the entire idea of labelling paraphilias as disorders is based purely on the fact they are not seen as normal (though recently, there's been a move to only label them as such when they cause distress, impede someones life, or cause them to do harm).

forest1985 said:
i'm lgbtqia+, i'm not acting like lgbtqia+ people don't use this site; as someone who spends a lot of time in queer spaces i know most non-intersex people don't think about intersex people's existence, they don't listen to intersex voices on intersex issues. Being queer doesn't mean you can't be intersexist

You're right on the money here. Intersexism is still EXTREMELY common in queer spaces, to a concerning degree. I'd also like to add a +1 to getting rid of the intersex umbrella tag, as I'm seeing less and less of a reason for it to exist, really. I'd still really like for us to rename the herm and maleherm tags, but maybe once we sort out intersex first.

forest1985 said:
-snip-

Hey there's a lot of good and important discussion to be had about anti-psych philosophy and issues with psychology/psychiatry. However. It is derailing the thread and this is probably a bad place to have that discussion anyway.

Anyway, on topic, +1 to removing the intersex umbrella.

regsmutt said:
Hey there's a lot of good and important discussion to be had about anti-psych philosophy and issues with psychology/psychiatry. However. It is derailing the thread and this is probably a bad place to have that discussion anyway.

Anyway, on topic, +1 to removing the intersex umbrella.

Yes, that's something I've noticed. Threads on intersex related topics tend to derail very quickly. Let's try to avoid that this time around, yeah?

savageorange said:
the only thing that I can think of is that I'm not 100% sure if it can be combined with * wildcards.

you can't, but parenthetical search has kinda fixed this; you can get it to work if you enclose the wildcarded term in parentheses so like: solo ambiguous ~dragon ~horse ~( domestic_* ) works to show you ambiguous dragons, horses, or domestic animals (dogs, and cats), but just: solo ambiguous ~dragon ~horse ~domestic_* ignores the wildcarded term showing only horses and dragons.

munchmallow-frosty said:
You're right on the money here. Intersexism is still EXTREMELY common in queer spaces, to a concerning degree. I'd also like to add a +1 to getting rid of the intersex umbrella tag, as I'm seeing less and less of a reason for it to exist, really. I'd still really like for us to rename the herm and maleherm tags, but maybe once we sort out intersex first.

yes! lets get rid of the intersex umbrella tag.

What should be done with the tag intersex if we were to get rid of it? Simply turn it into an invalid category tag, or a straight up disambiguation? I'm leaning toward disambig so we can include tags like intersex_pride_colors or intersex_(lore) on its wiki page.

munchmallow-frosty said:
What should be done with the tag intersex if we were to get rid of it? Simply turn it into an invalid category tag, or a straight up disambiguation? I'm leaning toward disambig so we can include tags like intersex_pride_colors or intersex_(lore) on its wiki page.

Ye, I think a disambig would be best.

munchmallow-frosty said:
What should be done with the tag intersex if we were to get rid of it? Simply turn it into an invalid category tag, or a straight up disambiguation? I'm leaning toward disambig so we can include tags like intersex_pride_colors or intersex_(lore) on its wiki page.

Disambiguation, there are theoretically valid replacements, and the tag is far too tainted to be reused any time soon

If no one else takes the lead on it, I can start compiling the needed scripts and start a topic to actually get the process moving

I'll probably make the OP a normal alias then hold off on creating the needed BURs to undo the existing structures until votes are in, and possibly when we can get an admin to do it all in much bigger chunks

donovan_dmc said:
Disambiguation, there are theoretically valid replacements, and the tag is far too tainted to be reused any time soon

If no one else takes the lead on it, I can start compiling the needed scripts and start a topic to actually get the process moving

I'll probably make the OP a normal alias then hold off on creating the needed BURs to undo the existing structures until votes are in, and possibly when we can get an admin to do it all in much bigger chunks

Sounds excellent. I'll keep an eye out for any future threads!

munchmallow-frosty said:
Yes, that's something I've noticed. Threads on intersex related topics tend to derail very quickly. Let's try to avoid that this time around, yeah?

This is because every time one is made it's by someone who (always wrongfully but very loudly) feels they're the sole authority on what terms should and shouldn't be used for specific body types because it's what the people in their inner circle feel about it, hence the complaining about about the previous futa -> intersex alias (dumb as it was, IMO) that was made for the same kind of reason because of the same kind of person happening in this very thread. And someone else with very loud opinions is gonna seethe about whatever's done with the tag next, too!

regsmutt said:
Ye, I think a disambig would be best.

Likewise, it's more trouble than it's worth to keep as-is. Too many people have too many different and conflicting views on how the tag should be used that always starts drama to the extent it's a useless tag. It's not e621's job to make the kinds of decisions that boil down to an in-group conflict anyways.

donovan_dmc said:
If no one else takes the lead on it, I can start compiling the needed scripts and start a topic to actually get the process moving

Currently looking at bare minimum 676 instructions just to dismantle the existing tag tree....... this is not going to be fun, and will absolutely require admin collaboration

mklxiv said:
This is because every time one is made it's by someone who (always wrongfully but very loudly) feels they're the sole authority on what terms should and shouldn't be used for specific body types because it's what the people in their inner circle feel about it, hence the complaining about about the previous futa -> intersex alias (dumb as it was, IMO) that was made for the same kind of reason because of the same kind of person happening in this very thread. And someone else with very loud opinions is gonna seethe about whatever's done with the tag next, too!

The past two times I've seen, it always got derailed because someone tried to make an analogy or comparison to explain their reasoning to get rid of or rename the tag, only for other users to latch onto that and attack the weakest points in their argument, distracting from the actual point at hand.

Speaking of (and I hope I'm not getting ahead of myself here), what should we do with futa once the alias to intersex is removed? I vote to make it a disambiguation as well, since it could refer to either gynomorph or herm.

munchmallow-frosty said:
The past two times I've seen, it always got derailed because someone tried to make an analogy or comparison to explain their reasoning to get rid of or rename the tag, only for other users to latch onto that and attack the weakest points in their argument, distracting from the actual point at hand.

Speaking of (and I hope I'm not getting ahead of myself here), what should we do with futa once the alias to intersex is removed? I vote to make it a disambiguation as well, since it could refer to either gynomorph or herm.

definitely a disambiguation, we have no 1:1 replacement for it, and I have no doubt it being aliased to intersex has caused numerous issues

munchmallow-frosty said:
The past two times I've seen, it always got derailed because someone tried to make an analogy or comparison to explain their reasoning to get rid of or rename the tag, only for other users to latch onto that and attack the weakest points in their argument, distracting from the actual point at hand.

Speaking of (and I hope I'm not getting ahead of myself here), what should we do with futa once the alias to intersex is removed? I vote to make it a disambiguation as well, since it could refer to either gynomorph or herm.

Would letting the alias move to intersex_(disambiguation) not work?

regsmutt said:
Would letting the alias move to intersex_(disambiguation) not work?

It being shoved into intersex is already a significant problem, it is 100% distinct from intersex both as a tag and as a disambiguation, so I think it should definitely get its own disambiguation page