Topic: alias bottom_orgasms_first -> sub_orgasms_first

The bulk update request #13000 is pending approval.

create alias bottom_orgasms_first (0) -> sub_orgasms_first (0)

Reason: A tag I just found. The wiki descriptions states it's when a submissive character orgasms first, but "bottom" and "submissive" are not synonyms. The tag name should be changed to be more accurate.

It looks like this is someone's pet project that they solely tag. I don't think it makes for a good tag since it is essentially just cum_while_penetrated -cum_inside.

The name suggests that you'd see dom cum after sub, but most of the posts don't have the dom orgasming at all, so they would be better tagged as submissive_orgasming. Assuming it's a useful tag, anyway. I think it's not, because, from my experience, it's really common to have only sub orgasming, so it's not something that's hard to find.

"sub" also implies the character being "submissive", which is a term that is heavily misused for penetrated characters that aren't actually in a submissive position (i.e. they're being dominated or restrained in some way). If the tag is intended for penetrated characters cumming first before the penetrating character (if the penetrating character cums at all), then the tag name should reflect that instead of continuing the misinterpretation that penetrated=submissive. And we should also avoid top/bottom in tags relating to penetration since there are times it can be confused for physical positioning, while "penetrating" and "penetrated" can be used more consistently with less ambiguity. Though I'm also with TheGreatWolfgang in thinking we probably don't need a tag like this at all, and existing tags should work well enough.

hi, im the creator of the tag, im new to tagging so im open to changes. renaming it to sub_orgasms_first or penetrated_orgasms_first could work, probably fits a lot more posts easier. the reason i made this tag is because i couldnt find a combination of tags that fit what i was looking for, so i decided to make one myself.

waydence said:
The name suggests that you'd see dom cum after sub, but most of the posts don't have the dom orgasming at all, so they would be better tagged as submissive_orgasming. Assuming it's a useful tag, anyway. I think it's not, because, from my experience, it's really common to have only sub orgasming, so it's not something that's hard to find.

i intended the tag as more of a widely used tag that would fit both art where the dominant character isnt/doesnt orgasm, plus art where they do, just after the sub. plus also including art where, for example, theres a power bottom riding a submissive male and the sub ends up reaching orgasm before the power bottom. (like post #5224995) which im realising now that i forgot to add the tag lol

also yeah this sorta is a bit of a pet project of mine, currently im the only person whos added to it, just working backwards through my favourites list at the moment.

thegreatwolfgang said:
It looks like this is someone's pet project that they solely tag. I don't think it makes for a good tag since it is essentially just cum_while_penetrated -cum_inside.

this doesn't account for posts where the dominant character also orgasms, so it doesnt really fit the same purpose

i do feel like this tag does serve a purpose, but could be improved.

If you have an idea for a new tag you should create a set of posts that would have that tag before actually going through and adding the tag to posts. Adding the tag to posts prematurely can give other users the impression that they should be using it too when it hasn't been decided whether that tag needs to exist yet. And creating a set gives you a clearer idea of how common the thing you want to tag actually is.

efini_fennec said:
this doesn't account for posts where the dominant character also orgasms, so it doesnt really fit the same purpose

If the one penetrating is orgasming (cumming inside the other) it should have the cum_inside tag; if cum_while_penetrated -cum_inside is showing you posts with one character cumming inside another then those posts are mistagged.

eightoflakes said:
If you have an idea for a new tag you should create a set of posts that would have that tag before actually going through and adding the tag to posts. Adding the tag to posts prematurely can give other users the impression that they should be using it too when it hasn't been decided whether that tag needs to exist yet. And creating a set gives you a clearer idea of how common the thing you want to tag actually is.

ah ok, apologies for that. i didnt know such a thing existed.

eightoflakes said:
If the one penetrating is orgasming (cumming inside the other) it should have the cum_inside tag; if cum_while_penetrated -cum_inside is showing you posts with one character cumming inside another then those posts are mistagged.

i see, but again this removes posts where the penetrating also cums inside the penetrated, so it doesnt really fit the purpose of the tag.

eightoflakes said:
If you have an idea for a new tag you should create a set of posts that would have that tag before actually going through and adding the tag to posts. Adding the tag to posts prematurely can give other users the impression that they should be using it too when it hasn't been decided whether that tag needs to exist yet. And creating a set gives you a clearer idea of how common the thing you want to tag actually is.

I am once again asking that this information be added somewhere new users can actually see it.

beholding said:
I am once again asking that this information be added somewhere new users can actually see it.

99% of users aren't going to read some big block of text on any page (source: people not reading ToS, or if you want a local example, people not reading the uploading guidelines then complaining they were never told what a DNP is/we don't accept humans/etc)
I'm not sure were you think this could be put that people would actually read it, but I can assure you anywhere it would be put would not be read

donovan_dmc said:
99% of users aren't going to read some big block of text on any page (source: people not reading ToS, or if you want a local example, people not reading the uploading guidelines then complaining they were never told what a DNP is/we don't accept humans/etc)
I'm not sure were you think this could be put that people would actually read it, but I can assure you anywhere it would be put would not be read

Count me in the 1% then because I do read those and I didn't know about doing it this way.
Maybe this is the kind of stuff that could go in a "Tag Creation" help page? With examples of best practices, maybe a mention to the "Do we have a tag for that" thread?

beholding said:
I am once again asking that this information be added somewhere new users can actually see it.

linkyu said:
Count me in the 1% then because I do read those and I didn't know about doing it this way.
Maybe this is the kind of stuff that could go in a "Tag Creation" help page? With examples of best practices, maybe a mention to the "Do we have a tag for that" thread?

Technically speaking, there is a section in the e621:Tagging Checklist that tells users to use a set for "subjective themes"*, though it does not specifically cover tags created with dubious validity.
But I agree that there needs to be a dedicated page, ideally in the Guidelines subsection of e621:Tags, that governs the proper procedure for creating a brand new tag.

^{* Subjective tags that express opinions. Common examples include beautiful, sexy, hot, good, crappy and most other adjectives. Subjective themes can be collected into a set instead. (See https://e621.net/help/sets )}

donovan_dmc said:
99% of users aren't going to read some big block of text on any page (source: people not reading ToS, or if you want a local example, people not reading the uploading guidelines then complaining they were never told what a DNP is/we don't accept humans/etc)
I'm not sure were you think this could be put that people would actually read it, but I can assure you anywhere it would be put would not be read

Okay, let's delete the entire wiki then if information is so useless.

Pessimism and misanthropy are not an excuse not to try. I'm proposing a solution to a known problem. Do you have a better solution, or are you just here to catastrophize?

Technically speaking, there is a section in the e621:Tagging Checklist that tells users to use a set for "subjective themes"*, though it does not specifically cover tags created with dubious validity.
But I agree that there needs to be a dedicated page, ideally in the Guidelines subsection of e621:Tags, that governs the proper procedure for creating a brand new tag.

The Tagging Checklist might be a good place for it, actually. That's something that is placed front and center every time people upload something. Might even be worth adding a note to this effect on the upload form itself.

beholding said:
Okay, let's delete the entire wiki then if information is so useless.

Pessimism and misanthropy are not an excuse not to try. I'm proposing a solution to a known problem. Do you have a better solution, or are you just here to catastrophize?

And once again you go from someone saying "let's not do this" to "burn down everything", that's like, the third time I can recall off the top of my head that you've taken something I've said and just made it entirely absurd to dismiss it rather than actually arguing against it

I'm not trying to "catastrophize", there are actual studies that say at least 70% - likely closer to 90%, and maybe even as high as 97% of users do not read terms before they accept them

There is strong evidence that most people do not read the terms they agree to, and this extends to similar boring texts they are not actually forced to read like documentation. I can personally attest to this from the sheer amount of people I have had to personally redirect to the documentation on projects I've made, which answers the exact question they're asking

If you want to stick it in the tagging checklist be my guest, but I'm pointing out that regardless of where you stick it, it's very likely to be read by the majority of people that need to actually see it, as well as not putting it anywhere prominent like directly on the uploader because while certainly annoying, it is not important enough to take up valuable space in an area that has a higher change of actually being read

efini_fennec said:
hi, im the creator of the tag, im new to tagging so im open to changes. renaming it to sub_orgasms_first or penetrated_orgasms_first could work, probably fits a lot more posts easier. the reason i made this tag is because i couldnt find a combination of tags that fit what i was looking for, so i decided to make one myself.

i intended the tag as more of a widely used tag that would fit both art where the dominant character isnt/doesnt orgasm, plus art where they do, just after the sub. plus also including art where, for example, theres a power bottom riding a submissive male and the sub ends up reaching orgasm before the power bottom. (like post #5224995) which im realising now that i forgot to add the tag lol

also yeah this sorta is a bit of a pet project of mine, currently im the only person whos added to it, just working backwards through my favourites list at the moment.

this doesn't account for posts where the dominant character also orgasms, so it doesnt really fit the same purpose

i do feel like this tag does serve a purpose, but could be improved.

Yes, sub not meaning the same as bottom was important to note.

donovan_dmc said:
And once again you go from someone saying "let's not do this" to "burn down everything", that's like, the third time I can recall off the top of my head that you've taken something I've said and just made it entirely absurd to dismiss it rather than actually arguing against it

Because this is the first time you've bothered to justify your argument with actual evidence instead of just mouthing off. If that's what I need to do in order to make you perform basic due diligence, I see no reason to stop.

You are still ignoring my argument, which is that this is a problem in need of a solution, and I have proposed one while you have proposed none. It is true that most people don't read stuff -- I'm well aware of that, I'm the one who's been cleaning up shirtless mistags -- but that alone is not sufficient justification to axe my proposal. Will it make the situation worse? No. Would it be onerous to implement? No. Do you have a better idea? Seemingly no. That means there is no reason not to try this. Even if it only provides a small benefit, small benefits are better than none. "It's not perfect" is not and has never been a valid counterargument to any proposal, anywhere.

Edit: This has gone on long enough that I think it warrants a dedicated thread.

alphamule said:
Yes, sub not meaning the same as bottom was important to note.

i agree, i feel like changing to sub_orgasms_first would improve it. plus that way it opens its self up to wider use

also side note, i apologise that this thread seems to have sparked an argument

efini_fennec said:
also side note, i apologise that this thread seems to have sparked an argument

Not your fault, it's been a long-running argument.

thinking of ways of improving it. i may go through and refine what i have this tag to so that it only applies to posts where the dominant character actually cums. for example, the submissive already having came, the dom later in an animation / comic etc. so it has to be explicitly shown that the dom does also cum. (which would probably also fit the "TWYS" policy better too)

also thinking of including posts which imply that the top will keep going until they finish too, either in the art itsself or in the description

efini_fennec said:
i agree, i feel like changing to sub_orgasms_first would improve it. plus that way it opens its self up to wider use

"Sub" is more restrictive than "penetrated". In the context of tagging, a sub/submissive is a character that's being dominated or restrained, which penetrative sex alone doesn't count for.

watsit said:
"Sub" is more restrictive than "penetrated". In the context of tagging, a sub/submissive is a character that's being dominated or restrained, which penetrative sex alone doesn't count for.

i see, you make a good point.

beholding said:
The bulk update request #13000 is pending approval.

create alias bottom_orgasms_first (0) -> sub_orgasms_first (0)

Reason: A tag I just found. The wiki descriptions states it's when a submissive character orgasms first, but "bottom" and "submissive" are not synonyms. The tag name should be changed to be more accurate.

If they are not synonyms then I think they should be separate tags, a power bottom could Be called a Dom in some cases. Meaning the Top could also be the Sub