Topic: if pedo and zoo iconography is gone, nazi stuff should be too.

Nazi propaganda is harmful and promotes neo-nazism, reinforcing and encouraging violent and bigoted worldviews that directly lead to real world harm.

Copy pasted directly from the upload guidelines:
Promotion of Real-Life Harm, Crimes, or Exploitation: Do not submit posts that promote or encourage real-life criminal activity, non-consensual harm, or exploitation of people or animals, including through the use of iconography or other types of symbols. These themes may be depicted in posts as long as it does not promote real-life activity.

Oh, jeez, they just got rid of the zoophile_iconography stuff too, huh? Hmm... Well, I hope this policy just sticks to iconography and doesn't get into the realm of banning kinks. Sticking to iconography seems to be their plan.

Anyways, nazi stuff is likely going to be more complicated to decide what would even need to be nuked.

These themes may be depicted in posts as long as it does not promote real-life activity.

topic #62286

i would argue theres a bit more of a risk of someone who is initially only interested in gooning to FICTIONAL depictions of zoophilia and/or pedophilia eventually getting pulled into REAL depictions, while with nazism i would say theres probably much less of a risk if i had to guess.

on a somewhat unrelated note, if i had to guess why that rule was added, its probably to combat the already pre-existing negative view of furries being degenerates, as said iconography is often used for REAL zoophilia/pedophilia which means if it was allowed en masse on e621 that could be used as yet another thing against the furry fandom. meanwhile people dont really associate nazism with furries.

I got sniped by YummyTummySketties while digging up the thread.

But to quote Rainbow Dash:

The difference here really comes down to how active the iconography is today, and if its being used by bad actors to actively further something. In the case of what we removed, it had crossed into that territory.

yummytummysketties said:
topic #62286

I stand by what I said in this thread. It's more complicated and there are more 'good-faith' uses. I think a large part of why this is more difficult to tackle is that nazi iconography is more mainstream and has more history in art, fiction, and kink.

forest1985 said:
Nazi propaganda is harmful and promotes neo-nazism, reinforcing and encouraging violent and bigoted worldviews that directly lead to real world harm.

Copy pasted directly from the upload guidelines:
Promotion of Real-Life Harm, Crimes, or Exploitation: Do not submit posts that promote or encourage real-life criminal activity, non-consensual harm, or exploitation of people or animals, including through the use of iconography or other types of symbols. These themes may be depicted in posts as long as it does not promote real-life activity.

Posts featuring nazi iconography don't attract neo-nazis here.
The same couldn't be said about MAP/zoo content and bona fide pedos/zoophiles.

popoto said:
I got sniped by YummyTummySketties while digging up the thread.

But to quote Rainbow Dash:

The quote was def more helpful than what I wrote.

regsmutt said:
I stand by what I said in this thread. It's more complicated and there are more 'good-faith' uses. I think a large part of why this is more difficult to tackle is that nazi iconography is more mainstream and has more history in art, fiction, and kink.

Same. moisha (tweenstrip) doesn't look like it would promote actual Nazism although half of these posts are tagged nazi.

I feel like the cultural significance of nazi iconography has, to this point, protected it somewhat from widespread unironic readoption. I'm not saying that it's not possible that people use it to actually promote the ideology, but I think overall, for now, it still has room for usage in semi-ctitical and fetish stuff without us needing to purge it.

it's way easier for bad actors to worm their way into using less known symbols in similar ways.

yummytummysketties said:
The quote was def more helpful than what I wrote.

Not really. It's from the same thread, I just saved OP (if he wants to take my word for it) like 5 seconds of scrolling.

kadachi-kun said:
Posts featuring nazi iconography don't attract neo-nazis here.
The same couldn't be said about MAP/zoo content and bona fide pedos/zoophiles.

That was something I started to notice in feral uploads overtime and it wasn't just really old comments either. People alluding to real life experiences but remaining subtle enough to maintain plausible deniability.

popoto said:
Not really. It's from the same thread, I just saved OP (if he wants to take my word for it) like 5 seconds of scrolling.

I was too lazy to check the whole thread. XD

popoto said:
That was something I started to notice in feral uploads overtime and it wasn't just really old comments either. People alluding to real life experiences but remaining subtle enough to maintain plausible deniability.

That's a cancer that infests any place like that. Take a look at any sub on reddit about anime girls getting railed by animals, and you'll find the comments full of people like that. And while most of them are probably just hornyposting, it inevitably attracts the unironic people too.

dba_afish said:
I feel like the cultural significance of nazi iconography has, to this point, protected it somewhat from widespread unironic readoption. I'm not saying that it's not possible that people use it to actually promote the ideology, but I think overall, for now, it still has room for usage in semi-ctitical and fetish stuff without us needing to purge it.

it's way easier for bad actors to worm their way into using less known symbols in similar ways.

I've noticed that the posts that attract far-right bad actors is just a lot more blatant and relies more on 'its totally just parody' or 'just sparking discussion' type stuff than flag colors. There are some exceptions- that one nazi pony oc always has a lot of very upvoted 'why do people downvote just because of politics' comments, and I'm sure there are others.
But, again, I don't think that removing Tom of Finland-inspired art does anyone any good. If there's going to be removals of nazi-attractants it should be done carefully.

lactatingkhajiit said:
That's a cancer that infests any place like that. Take a look at any sub on reddit about anime girls getting railed by animals, and you'll find the comments full of people like that. And while most of them are probably just hornyposting, it inevitably attracts the unironic people too.

Reddit is... bad about hornyposting, yeah. Too many comments on Reddit are filled with... let's just say "very sus stuff" that I'm sure is specifically what the Mods are trying to avoid here with this policy.

popoto said:
That was something I started to notice in feral uploads overtime and it wasn't just really old comments either. People alluding to real life experiences but remaining subtle enough to maintain plausible deniability.

lactatingkhajiit said:
That's a cancer that infests any place like that. Take a look at any sub on reddit about anime girls getting railed by animals, and you'll find the comments full of people like that. And while most of them are probably just hornyposting, it inevitably attracts the unironic people too.

If you come across such comments, report them. Mods will investigate the matter thoroughly and take action if need be. You won't get in trouble for making good-faith reports even if no actual violation is found.

Yeah, there are a lot of very upvoted memes here that are basically just thinly disguised white supremacist propoganda, sometimes even including shit like hyperborea or black suns.

If you have a nazi at a table with five other people, you have six nazis at the table. It is extremely important to crack down on this shit hard and fast, or else a site will become a nazi(fur) bar.

listlesssky said:
Yeah, there are a lot of very upvoted memes here that are basically just thinly disguised white supremacist propoganda, sometimes even including shit like hyperborea or black suns.

If you have a nazi at a table with five other people, you have six nazis at the table. It is extremely important to crack down on this shit hard and fast, or else a site will become a nazi(fur) bar.

Way to ignore the rest of the discussion.

We don't like deleting acceptable posts from the site, even if we dislike their contents. If we end up doing so, then it's because they're contributing to a problem on the site. In the case of the pedophilia and zoophilia iconography posts, it's because they were attracting undesirables who try to use the site to connect with other undesirables to cause real world harm. That's not what e621 is about, and we don't want them doing that. That's part of why we added that bit to the Uploading Guidelines, so we could have something to point to when whacking these undesirables who were being a direct problem toward the website.

If posts with Nazi iconography end up causing us problems, then yes, that guideline can be used on them. In a sense, we already have, long before the current situation arose. That's how Averi (Fiddleafox) got a c-DNP despite being a character instead of an artist. Trolls were using the character with Nazi iconography to cause problems with the site, so we took measures to counter them. Nowadays, that guideline can be used to justify it.

Regardless, do you really think Nazis are going to use a furry gallery site with loads of LGBTQ+ posts and lots of LGBTQ+ and other "degenerate" Users to hookup with other Nazis to cause real world harm? After all, homosexuals were one of the groups specifically targeted during the Holocaust. No, I don't believe Nazis will be the same problem the pedophile and zoophile undesirables were. Problems with Nazis will require different solutions.

Also, you have a blacklist for a reason. I recommend using it.

clawstripe said:
We don't like deleting acceptable posts from the site, even if we dislike their contents.

I can't speak for the others, but at least for me: I am not asking you to delete acceptable posts, I am asking you to update the policy and define nazi posts as unacceptable.

"There are too many gays here for nazis to gather" has never stopped them before. They simply end up festering and forming movements like the 'burned furs'. There are a lot of non-gay furs who are disgruntled about how many gay people are in this fandom and wish there were less of us. There are gay furs who are insecure about their sexuality and lash out at other gay furs for being open about theirs. And there are many furs of any orientation that harbor racist views. All of these groups are unfortunately very easy targets for radicalization.

It doesn't always take the form of IRL meetups. Today, many hate campaigns both outside and within this fandom are done online and coordinated via social media or dedicated forums like the one that shall not be named. Artists are sent death threats and doxxed off the internet. I think most people here can name at least one artist who has deleted their gallery in response to such hate-motivated harassment.

Closing our eyes to hate by blacklisting its symbols does not stop it from growing.

listlesssky said:
I can't speak for the others, but at least for me: I am not asking you to delete acceptable posts, I am asking you to update the policy and define nazi posts as unacceptable.

"There are too many gays here for nazis to gather" has never stopped them before. They simply end up festering and forming movements like the 'burned furs'. There are a lot of non-gay furs who are disgruntled about how many gay people are in this fandom and wish there were less of us. There are gay furs who are insecure about their sexuality and lash out at other gay furs for being open about theirs. And there are many furs of any orientation that harbor racist views. All of these groups are unfortunately very easy targets for radicalization.

It doesn't always take the form of IRL meetups. Today, many hate campaigns both outside and within this fandom are done online and coordinated via social media or dedicated forums like the one that shall not be named. Artists are sent death threats and doxxed off the internet. I think most people here can name at least one artist who has deleted their gallery in response to such hate-motivated harassment.

Closing our eyes to hate by blacklisting its symbols does not stop it from growing.

The attempted normalization of pedophilia and zoophilia within the fandom is a much bigger problem than a handful of nazifurs, who are already a minority within a minority.

listlesssky said:
I can't speak for the others, but at least for me: I am not asking you to delete acceptable posts, I am asking you to update the policy and define nazi posts as unacceptable.

I feel that the situation is not that clear-cut for Nazi posts, as compared to Pedophile and Zoophile iconography (which are relatively new movements).

Nazifurs have a long history in the furry community and were just a group interested in "reenacting, uniform fetish, military history and tactics, and anthropomorphic art set during [WWII Germany]."
The original community would also notably "refuse registration to any applicants who are affiliated with any hate groups" and would ban users who "post anything containing anti-semitism, racial hatred, or ethnic cleansing, unless done in a [light joke]".
Being interested in Nazifurs should never be conflated with real-world Neo-Nazism, which idealises Nazism and their hateful ideals.

As far as I can see with the recent deletions, it is all targeted towards posts that put these ideologies in a positive light or in a way advocates for the movement. As a result, (ironically) leaving behind only the hate posts.
For Nazi posts to be deleted, it has to in some way propagate the hateful ideals of Nazism/Neo-Nazism.

kadachi-kun said:
The attempted normalization of pedophilia and zoophilia within the fandom is a much bigger problem than a handful of nazifurs, who are already a minority within a minority.

How is banning nazifur imagery hurting the fight against pedos and zoos in any way?

"X is rare therefore we shouldn't bother fighting it" is a great recipe for it to stop being rare
Not that it really was. Open nazis are uncommon, but furs who privately hold some extremist views are becoming very common. Often, a handful coordinate to start a snowball of harassment against an artist which many 'normie' bigots organically join in on. Nazifur shit with a source linked helps people like that find each other to coordinate such harassment.

listlesssky said:
I can't speak for the others, but at least for me: I am not asking you to delete acceptable posts, I am asking you to update the policy and define nazi posts as unacceptable.

"There are too many gays here for nazis to gather" has never stopped them before. They simply end up festering and forming movements like the 'burned furs'. There are a lot of non-gay furs who are disgruntled about how many gay people are in this fandom and wish there were less of us. There are gay furs who are insecure about their sexuality and lash out at other gay furs for being open about theirs. And there are many furs of any orientation that harbor racist views. All of these groups are unfortunately very easy targets for radicalization.

It doesn't always take the form of IRL meetups. Today, many hate campaigns both outside and within this fandom are done online and coordinated via social media or dedicated forums like the one that shall not be named. Artists are sent death threats and doxxed off the internet. I think most people here can name at least one artist who has deleted their gallery in response to such hate-motivated harassment.

Closing our eyes to hate by blacklisting its symbols does not stop it from growing.

The problem is performing a blanket ban like that would also sweep up posts speaking against it as well. There are plenty of posts that depict Nazi characters negatively, often times depicted as deranged and sadistic. And if you start making a bunch of rules to try to define what is a "good" and "bad" depiction of something you run into a slippery slope were more and more will artwork will start to be removed.

thegreatwolfgang said:
Being interested in Nazifurs should never be conflated with real-world Neo-Nazism, which idealises Nazism and their hateful ideals.

The very article you yourself just linked lists actual hate crimes committed by "nazifurs", which go all the way back to 2006. What the fuck is this "they aren't real nazis" argument? Just because they say so? Their actions speak far louder than words.

Also apparently one of their ringleaders did some truly atrocious things, including sex crimes against a child.
Fighting nazis in the fandom is, in fact, fighting pedophilia in it.

zeedren said:
The problem is performing a blanket ban like that would also sweep up posts speaking against it as well. There are plenty of posts that depict Nazi characters negatively, often times depicted as deranged and sadistic. And if you start making a bunch of rules to try to define what is a "good" and "bad" depiction of something you run into a slippery slope were more and more will artwork will start to be removed.

We wouldn't need to speak against it if site administration took action against it.
Never once in history have fascists been defeated in the 'marketplace of ideas'.

I got curious if nazi imagery WAS attracting pests, so I searched up black_sun and looked at the first blatantly nazi-theme image, post #4417146

Of the last for commenters one is banned for hate speech, the next is an edgelord, followed by 'Banned at discretion of staff', and finally someone who makes weirdo comments like this.

I have seen similar stuff in other images with these themes. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that it is possible for this kind of art to create an attractive environment for bad actors. Whether or not it actually does (and does on a scale as large as the issues with the pedophilia tag) is unclear.

If moderators DO find this content to create problems, I do still think that deleting images would require nuance.

Using nazi imagery "ironically" is not actually criticism of it, and half the time it's barely even ironic.
It exists to be plausibly deniable, enough of a joke to be accepted up until the moment it isn't.

post #3686325

post #3656363

The fact it's partially a joke does not stop a nazi post from attracting trolls and pests, with six in the comments of this image alone, and many others banned elsewhere on the site while using it as a profile picture.

post #4866146

listlesssky said:
The very article you yourself just linked lists actual hate crimes committed by "nazifurs", which go all the way back to 2006. What the fuck is this "they aren't real nazis" argument? Just because they say so? Their actions speak far louder than words.

Where did you find "hate crimes"? Are the actions perpetrated by the group at large or a few bigoted individuals?
You need to look those up before making sweeping generalisations based on the actions of a few.

Also apparently one of their ringleaders did some truly atrocious things, including sex crimes against a child.
Fighting nazis in the fandom is, in fact, fighting pedophilia in it.

The very article I linked also said that the original community's founder disavowed this person and the group they created as nothing but an alt-right troll group, which has nothing to do with the original community's philosophy.

Are we actually at "you can't call literal nazifurs a hate group because they said they're not, even though they did horrible shit and one of their ringleaders did even more horrible shit".
Like is that actually the position of this site? Please tell me it's not and this is just one dude, I feel like i'm in fucking bizarro world

listlesssky said:
Are we actually at "you can't call literal nazifurs a hate group because they said they're not, even though they did horrible shit and one of their ringleaders did even more horrible shit".
Like is that actually the position of this site? Please tell me it's not and this is just one dude, I feel like i'm in fucking bizarro world

...You've been rather hostile on the past several posts.
Even when certain kinds of posts were approved, that doesn't mean the site supports or promotes the ideology behind it. Clawstripe already said it but if a post does have problem, the staff will delete it.

listlesssky said:
Are we actually at "you can't call literal nazifurs a hate group because they said they're not, even though they did horrible shit and one of their ringleaders did even more horrible shit".
Like is that actually the position of this site? Please tell me it's not and this is just one dude, I feel like i'm in fucking bizarro world

Your argument already flawed from the start if you could ever consider the action of one to be the definitive of the whole group.
You might as well say that all furries should be banned because they have controversial elements in them. A bizarre world, indeed.