Topic: Usage of Multiple_Scenes (again, a decade later)

I have a couple gripes with the multiple_scenes tag, which has been on my radar as I tinker with tagging untagged character amounts.

First off, I have been wondering what the difference between multiple_scenes and sequence is, as they both have very similar wiki descriptions, describing a progression of events over time following one or more characters. In the multiple_scenes wiki, it lists sequence under the "not to be confused with" section but doesn't give an explanation, and the sequence wiki doesn't even mention it at all.

Secondly, multiple_scenes not requiring a scene change is confusing. Neither of the two example posts in its wiki depict a scene change (post #3857820 and post #3429749), and, according to this decade old forum, some didn't back then, either. And it's practically never tagged with scene changes in mind despite its name.

In short: to me it seems like multiple_scenes should either have its wiki edited to necessitate an actual location change and subsequently cleaned up, OR aliased with sequence. But I obviously won't just go rogue and do this without any input, so I want to know what everyone else thinks is the best solution.

hell_ish said:
I have a couple gripes with the multiple_scenes tag, which has been on my radar as I tinker with tagging untagged character amounts.

First off, I have been wondering what the difference between multiple_scenes and sequence is, as they both have very similar wiki descriptions, describing a progression of events over time following one or more characters. In the multiple_scenes wiki, it lists sequence under the "not to be confused with" section but doesn't give an explanation, and the sequence wiki doesn't even mention it at all.

Definitions:

• Sequence is "mainly for visual progressions, and images that don't quite fit into the comic tag. Concepts that show a clear progression from one state to another are great for this tag, but a sequence can also be a string of independent actions that appear to be connected to a single scene, or progression of time."
• Multiple scenes is for posts that "contains two or more related images, most common in comics and animations, which often (but not always) show a progression of events by the same character(s) over time."

In short, a sequence must show a series of images that (a) shows a visual progression from one state to another or actions that appear connected, and (b) does not fit the comic tag.
On the other hand, multiple_scenes must show (a) two or more related images that may or may not show a progression of events, and (b) can be tagged as comic or animation whenever applicable.

If the wiki pages are inconsistent with their explanations, then fix it.

Secondly, multiple_scenes not requiring a scene change is confusing. Neither of the two example posts in its wiki depict a scene change (post #3857820 and post #3429749), and, according to this decade old forum, some didn't back then, either. And it's practically never tagged with scene changes in mind despite its name.

"Scenes", in this sense, does not refer to a change of physical locations, but rather a change of actions or perspectives.

In short: to me it seems like multiple_scenes should either have its wiki edited to necessitate an actual location change and subsequently cleaned up, OR aliased with sequence. But I obviously won't just go rogue and do this without any input, so I want to know what everyone else thinks is the best solution.

IMO, the way I use it is that sequence simply shows a change of one state to another while multiple_scenes simply shows a scene from multiple shots/angles/cutaways which may or may not involve a sequence.
I feel that they should not be muddled with common instances of comic or animation (since that is expected), but I have a feeling that there would be exceptions.

Examples:

• Sequence - post #655160
• Multiple scenes - post #6232946
• Sequence + Multiple_scenes - post #2678938

thegreatwolfgang said:
If the wiki pages are inconsistent with their explanations, then fix it.

I definitely will. I just don't want to choose by myself. I'm new when it comes to contributing and I don't want to overstep.

Definitions:

• Sequence is "mainly for visual progressions, and images that don't quite fit into the comic tag. Concepts that show a clear progression from one state to another are great for this tag, but a sequence can also be a string of independent actions that appear to be connected to a single scene, or progression of time."
• Multiple scenes is for posts that "contains two or more related images, most common in comics and animations, which often (but not always) show a progression of events by the same character(s) over time."

In short, a sequence must show a series of images that (a) shows a visual progression from one state to another or actions that appear connected, and (b) does not fit the comic tag.
On the other hand, multiple_scenes must show (a) two or more related images that may or may not show a progression of events, and (b) can be tagged as comic or animation whenever applicable.

"Scenes", in this sense, does not refer to a change of physical locations, but rather a change of actions or perspectives.

IMO, the way I use it is that sequence simply shows a change of one state to another while multiple_scenes simply shows a scene from multiple shots/angles/cutaways which may or may not involve a sequence.
I feel that they should not be muddled with common instances of comic or animation (since that is expected), but I have a feeling that there would be exceptions.

Wrt multiple_scenes, I wouldn't think it's about multiple shots of a single scene as that seems rather confusing. I feel as if multiple_poses/multiple_positions or multiple_angles would fit the idea better. I do understand what you mean when you refer to a change in actions or perspectives, but would that not cover every single sequential/connected set of images that exists, minus multiple_versions?
You can also consider the creator of the tag wiki's intent: which is that it's to be used when an image's content changes so much between scenes that it would necessitate a change in tags, or when there is a literal scene change. I also found the forum that talks about the initially proposed definitions and contains the source for our current wiki's contents.

As for sequences: that's also how I understood it at first, and I do quite like the shortened definition you gave it, but the current reality is not as clear-cut as you say. Instead of it needing both a and b, it can be either. The comic wiki states: "For single-page stories that don't use panels or that have decidedly shallow narratives, tag sequence instead." I overlooked mentioning the comic wiki's definition as I thought the sequence wiki had something similar, but I guess it's mostly implied. Imo, this definition needs to be axed and sequences clarified to mean similar to what you've described, but the comic wiki would also need a replacement - maybe multiple_scenes works instead? I'm not sure.

The overlap comes in where the idea of multiple_scenes being "related images that don't have to be a comic" & the idea of a sequence being "comics without panels or narrative" collide and they get tagged at random. Now that I look back, aliasing would've been absurd, but I hadn't quite completed the train of thought at that point. The issue seems to be fully within the definitions.

To me, it's best fixed as nixing the comic wiki definition of sequence and replacing it with...something, a dedicated pseudo-comic tag seems preferable to me but would be a lot of work - could also work with multiple_scenes. The sequences definition being replaced to be similar to yours. The multiple_scenes definition being...again, something - I prefer the explanation in forum #183193 but it would be quite the overhaul. This is also why I didn't edit the wikis off the bat, I don't have anything concrete haha.

hell_ish said:
Wrt multiple_scenes, I wouldn't think it's about multiple shots of a single scene as that seems rather confusing. I feel as if multiple_poses/multiple_positions or multiple_angles would fit the idea better.

Not really, though I should have probably used my words wisely, particularly "angles" & "perspectives".

• Multiple_poses - it is for posts which "contains two or more depictions of the same character in a variety of poses or gestures" and that "usually contain only one character".
• The character needs to be actively posing in various poses. Think photo_shoot.
• Multiple_positions - it is for posts which "contains two or more depictions of the same duo or group of characters interacting with each other in a variety of ways."
• This one mainly concerns two or more characters interacting in various "positions". While it is not explicitly mentioned, this mainly involves two or more characters in various sex positions as per thumbnail examples, though I'm certain SFW instances are not outside the realm of possibilities.
• Multiple_angles - it is for posts which shows "a character in the same pose drawn or rendered from various angles" as well as being applicable for "full scenes illustrated from different viewpoints."
• This one mainly concerns a scene/character drawn from various angles or perspectives. Imagine taking static screenshots of a turntable_(animation). Full scenes here may involve use of various *_view perspectives of the same scene.

I do understand what you mean when you refer to a change in actions or perspectives, but would that not cover every single sequential/connected set of images that exists, minus multiple_versions?

I don't think I catch your meaning. If instances like post #6232946 are not covered by comic or sequence, what other tag would they fall under?

You can also consider the creator of the tag wiki's intent: which is that it's to be used when an image's content changes so much between scenes that it would necessitate a change in tags, or when there is a literal scene change. I also found the forum that talks about the initially proposed definitions and contains the source for our current wiki's contents.

While the forums may have promoted this idea of multiple physical scenes, I guess the current wiki for multiple_scenes still does not make it clear that was the intention.
It is just simply defined as when a post "contains two or more related images", in direct contrast with multiple_images.

What's funny is that in the multiple_images wiki, it mentions that "the multiple_scenes tag similarly does not apply when it is embedded into a comic, or part of an animation."
This would be in direct contradiction with what is stated in the multiple_scenes wiki, in that "these posts are usually also tagged animated or comic", furthering my point on how it should probably not be muddled with the two tags mentioned.

AFAIK, I have been using multiple_scenes as in multiple shots or cutaways of a single scene or interaction, rather than a literal changing of scenes or locations.
I feel such instances would be properly served under a new tag like multiple_locations, but I'm willing to hear what others have to say about how the current tag is used first.

As for sequences: that's also how I understood it at first, and I do quite like the shortened definition you gave it, but the current reality is not as clear-cut as you say. Instead of it needing both a and b, it can be either. The comic wiki states: "For single-page stories that don't use panels or that have decidedly shallow narratives, tag sequence instead." I overlooked mentioning the comic wiki's definition as I thought the sequence wiki had something similar, but I guess it's mostly implied. Imo, this definition needs to be axed and sequences clarified to mean similar to what you've described, but the comic wiki would also need a replacement - maybe multiple_scenes works instead? I'm not sure.

The overlap comes in where the idea of multiple_scenes being "related images that don't have to be a comic" & the idea of a sequence being "comics without panels or narrative" collide and they get tagged at random. Now that I look back, aliasing would've been absurd, but I hadn't quite completed the train of thought at that point. The issue seems to be fully within the definitions.

Let's put it this way:

• Comic simply needs to have a block/panel structure to count* (so exclude any posts you think might fit into this category).
• For example, a post with multiple panels showing a character waking up, going to the bathroom, wearing clothes, and then going to work. Note that it is far more complex narrative than a simple sequence.
• Multiple_scenes simply needs multiple related images in one post*, which is not bound by panels like a comic.
• For example, a post with a large shot showing two characters having sex, with two smaller (unbound) shots of one showing them kissing and another showing them in looking_pleasured. Note that no clear sequence of events is seen here.
• Sequence simply needs to show progression from one state to another, which can be used on comic or multiple_scenes.
• For example of a comic, a post with multiple panels but one of them being a static shot of a tree in four different seasons/background. Note that you can see from that one panel alone a sequence with the change of seasons, from summer to autumn to winter to spring.
• Foe example of multiple_scenes, a post with a large shot showing a character jerking off, with two smaller shots of one showing them start to leak precum and another showing them ejaculating into the air. Note that you can see a clear sequence of events, from stimulation to pleasure to climax.

<sup>* I absolutely despise the idea of borderless_panel, or how multiple_images defines post #1065234 as being a "comic page with a cluttered layout", but we will ignore these for now for the sake of the argument.
* Assuming we had used my definition and excluded literal scene shifts.</sup>

To me, it's best fixed as nixing the comic wiki definition of sequence and replacing it with...something, a dedicated pseudo-comic tag seems preferable to me but would be a lot of work - could also work with multiple_scenes. The sequences definition being replaced to be similar to yours. The multiple_scenes definition being...again, something - I prefer the explanation in forum #183193 but it would be quite the overhaul. This is also why I didn't edit the wikis off the bat, I don't have anything concrete haha.

Yeah, it would be better to have a in-depth discussion like this if we are going to redefine anything.

I don't think we need a pseudo-comic tag, but rather, a new tag like multiple_locations to replace the one described in forum #183193.

thegreatwolfgang said:
Not really, though I should have probably used my words wisely, particularly "angles" & "perspectives".

I don't think I catch your meaning. If instances like post #6232946 are not covered by comic or sequence, what other tag would they fall under?

While the forums may have promoted this idea of multiple physical scenes, I guess the current wiki for multiple_scenes still does not make it clear that was the intention.
It is just simply defined as when a post "contains two or more related images", in direct contrast with multiple_images.

AFAIK, I have been using multiple_scenes as in multiple shots or cutaways of a single scene or interaction, rather than a literal changing of scenes or locations.
I feel such instances would be properly served under a new tag like multiple_locations, but I'm willing to hear what others have to say about how the current tag is used first.

The confusion was the point at the time; to me it didn't make sense to classify multiple_scenes as covering posts like that, and the definition was far too similar with how sequence had been described (in the comic wiki, at least).
Understanding it as a direct contrast with multiple_images' lack of continuity makes a lot more sense. It does make a lot more sense to do as you've suggested and solidify & clarify multiple_scenes as what it's already used for while creating a new tag for its old purpose; I'm more than happy with that idea.

What's funny is that in the multiple_images wiki, it mentions that "the multiple_scenes tag similarly does not apply when it is embedded into a comic, or part of an animation."
This would be in direct contradiction with what is stated in the multiple_scenes wiki, in that "these posts are usually also tagged animated or comic", furthering my point on how it should probably not be muddled with the two tags mentioned.

Oh god...I didn't even notice that. I didn't respond directly to you first saying they shouldn't be muddled because I hadn't fully grasped your point, but I get it now. @_@

Let's put it this way:

• Comic simply needs to have a block/panel structure to count* (so exclude any posts you think might fit into this category).
• For example, a post with multiple panels showing a character waking up, going to the bathroom, wearing clothes, and then going to work. Note that it is far more complex narrative than a simple sequence.
• Multiple_scenes simply needs multiple related images in one post*, which is not bound by panels like a comic.
• For example, a post with a large shot showing two characters having sex, with two smaller (unbound) shots of one showing them kissing and another showing them in looking_pleasured. Note that no clear sequence of events is seen here.
• Sequence simply needs to show progression from one state to another, which can be used on comic or multiple_scenes.
• For example of a comic, a post with multiple panels but one of them being a static shot of a tree in four different seasons/background. Note that you can see from that one panel alone a sequence with the change of seasons, from summer to autumn to winter to spring.
• Foe example of multiple_scenes, a post with a large shot showing a character jerking off, with two smaller shots of one showing them start to leak precum and another showing them ejaculating into the air. Note that you can see a clear sequence of events, from stimulation to pleasure to climax.

^{* Assuming we had used my definition and excluded literal scene shifts.}

Most of this I can get behind. I think we're still butting heads on the definition of multiple_scenes, though.

Imo, as long as there is a continuity between individual drawings (as in, you're meant to understand them as a whole) but it's not paneled (as that would make it a comic) and the actions have more variety than what would only be tagged sequence, it would classify under this idea of multiple_scenes.
I'm specifically avoiding the word "related" due to how the multiple_images wiki words itself: "These can be either unrelated or follow a theme (such as 'MLP characters')." And they're right, "related" is a very broad term; I think "continuity" or, in some cases, "narrative progression" pin down the exact idea better.

This would broaden the definition past excluding literal scene shifts, which I guess I can't understand as being necessary. Why would it not also include location changes under your definition? Multiple_images doesn't exclude a location change, comics doesn't, sequence doesn't either if it's still clearly a sequence (see something like post #3280414 for an example of this). (Though, that might not what you're arguing and you're just saying it shouldn't only be for scene shifts, which I would agree with. If that's the case, sorry for the ramble.)

I want to note that some of the wikis describe a sort of "narrative significance" that I'm starting to disagree with as a metric.* It's incredibly subjective, and many long-form comics have pages that are neatly paneled and are comics, but are filler and narratively empty.
I think paneled/numbered pages vs non-paneled/numbered pages are what should differentiate comics from multiple_scenes, and continuity vs lack of continuity is what should differentiate multiple_scenes from multiple_images as a whole, and the "shallow narrative" thing gets axed.
_{*Comic wiki: "For single-page stories that [...] have decidedly shallow narratives, tag sequence instead." + sequence wiki: "Use the comic tag for posts with a more complete narrative [...] and posts that focus more on the narrative than the progression of an event."}

I also think it might be valuable to describe sequence as an event or action taking place over multiple similar-looking "frames" (I'd say 3 or more), just to clarify that the progression has to be elaborated upon. I'm not dead-set on "frames" as made apparent by the quotes, but something that is a sequence as we have defined it here is basically a slideshow or animation with its frames instead separated on the page.

^{* I absolutely despise the idea of borderless_panel, or how multiple_images defines post #1065234 as being a "comic page with a cluttered layout", but we will ignore these for now for the sake of the argument.}

Tbf, we don't have to ignore it for the sake of the argument...the comic wiki itself doesn't even support non-paneled comics. @_@ I don't feel strongly about borderless_panel, but it just seems...useless and easy to misunderstand. I do often see comics that use the page's empty space as its own "panel" beneath other panels (technically borderless seeing as that's part of how people use the tag), I just don't know who would ever use it in a search.

hell_ish said:
Imo, as long as there is a continuity between individual drawings (as in, you're meant to understand them as a whole) but it's not paneled (as that would make it a comic) and the actions have more variety than what would only be tagged sequence, it would classify under this idea of multiple_scenes.
I'm specifically avoiding the word "related" due to how the multiple_images wiki words itself: "These can be either unrelated or follow a theme (such as 'MLP characters')." And they're right, "related" is a very broad term; I think "continuity" or, in some cases, "narrative progression" pin down the exact idea better.

This would broaden the definition past excluding literal scene shifts, which I guess I can't understand as being necessary. Why would it not also include location changes under your definition? Multiple_images doesn't exclude a location change, comics doesn't, sequence doesn't either if it's still clearly a sequence (see something like post #3280414 for an example of this). (Though, that might not what you're arguing and you're just saying it shouldn't only be for scene shifts, which I would agree with. If that's the case, sorry for the ramble.)

I am arguing that we should separate the two concepts so that people searching for actual scene shifts can find it easily, with the multiple_locations tag.

If we had included that concept into multiple_scenes, then it would be functionally be the same with how people are using it right now (i.e., a tag that serves two distinct purposes) which may lead to further confusion.
I also do believe that multiple_images can depict instances of scene changes as well, such as that viral Alternate Realities 3D compilation from years ago.

I want to note that some of the wikis describe a sort of "narrative significance" that I'm starting to disagree with as a metric.* It's incredibly subjective, and many long-form comics have pages that are neatly paneled and are comics, but are filler and narratively empty.
I think paneled/numbered pages vs non-paneled/numbered pages are what should differentiate comics from multiple_scenes, and continuity vs lack of continuity is what should differentiate multiple_scenes from multiple_images as a whole, and the "shallow narrative" thing gets axed.
_{*Comic wiki: "For single-page stories that [...] have decidedly shallow narratives, tag sequence instead." + sequence wiki: "Use the comic tag for posts with a more complete narrative [...] and posts that focus more on the narrative than the progression of an event."}

Technically, those filler pages do still count as being comic, even if they lack any notable story-telling or dialogue, as the wiki says that "a single panel can take up an entire page" and "single-panel pages must still retain some comic structure, such as frames or page numbering."

Though I do still see pages which lack any sort of comic structure be tagged as comic due to implied tags like first_page and end_page (which are distinct from cover_page and back_cover), making it an unavoidable problem; e.g., post #4990187 & post #6172197.

While I agree that it can be problematic as described, I do believe the simple definition of it helps users who are unfamiliar with the concept differentiate between a regular sequence and a comic.
Though a rewording or clarification of its actual use is certainly needed.

I also think it might be valuable to describe sequence as an event or action taking place over multiple similar-looking "frames" (I'd say 3 or more), just to clarify that the progression has to be elaborated upon. I'm not dead-set on "frames" as made apparent by the quotes, but something that is a sequence as we have defined it here is basically a slideshow or animation with its frames instead separated on the page.

3 and above would be accurate as it basically splits before_and_after from three/four/multi_frame_sequence.

thegreatwolfgang said:
I am arguing that we should separate the two concepts so that people searching for actual scene shifts can find it easily, with the multiple_locations tag.

If we had included that concept into multiple_scenes, then it would be functionally be the same with how people are using it right now (i.e., a tag that serves two distinct purposes) which may lead to further confusion.

I don't think anyone is using it as an actual location indicator, that's just part of what it was made to be. I'm also not advocating for that, just that it shouldn't fully exclude the idea of moving locations.

It's basically used as a companion to comic as of right now (705 pages under comic multiple_scenes and 110 pages under -comic multiple_scenes). We both agree that it shouldn't be tagged alongside comic, or at least that it shouldn't be as intertwined, I just find it arbitrary to exclude location shifts. If there were a multiple_locations tag, it would have the same use whether or not it could also be tagged alongside multiple_scenes.

To me, the current way these tags are used is this:

• Comic: Mostly as intended, with paneled or numbered pages telling a story, but some exceptions like you list below.
• Sequence: "Comics" without panels (sometimes even comics with panels), AND actual *_frame_sequences.
• Multiple_scenes: Anything with continuity, comic or otherwise.
• Multiple_images: As intended, two or more drawings without continuity.

And what I think it should be is:

• Comic: Only paneled or numbered drawings that are telling a story. Not to be tagged alongside multiple_scenes or multiple_images.
• Sequence: Only actual *_frame_sequences. Not explicitly excluded from the other categories listed if applicable.
• Multiple_scenes: Two or more drawings with a continuous narrative that excludes posts covered by the comic tag.
• Would probably find prominent use in posts with unpanelled sex scenes.
• Multiple_images: No change, two or more drawings without any continuous narrative.
• Multiple_locations: There is a location change. Can be tagged alongside any of the above if applicable.

Sorry if I've misunderstood something, though.

I also do believe that multiple_images can depict instances of scene changes as well, such as that viral Alternate Realities 3D compilation from years ago.

I didn't say otherwise afaik.

Technically, those filler pages do still count as being comic, even if they lack any notable story-telling or dialogue, as the wiki says that "a single panel can take up an entire page" and "single-panel pages must still retain some comic structure, such as frames or page numbering."

Yes, that was my point. It's impossible to tell if a panel of a comic is "narratively shallow" or only a single page of a larger comic unless we want to use clues outside of the image itself. That's where my issue with the "single page with a shallow narrative" comes in...what if there's a single page that is part of a larger comic that is neatly paneled (or at least has a page number), but is narratively shallow? Are we allowed to use outside clues when it comes to the comic tag?

Though I do still see pages which lack any sort of comic structure be tagged as comic due to implied tags like first_page and end_page (which are distinct from cover_page and back_cover), making it an unavoidable problem; e.g., post #4990187 & post #6172197.

Again, I'm not sure how much TWYS is allowed to be put to the side for comics. I would assume it isn't. And if it's not, I don't think it's unavoidable: I would say first_page/end_page would require a "1" in the corner or it clearly stating "end"/"thanks for reading" at the end.

Comic does allow single-panel pages as long as they "retain some comic structure, such as frames or page numbering." so that would fall under page numbering imo. It looks like the first example you provided probably used the tag to allow it to be approved, but it being part of a pool should uphold that instead. I'd say posts like those just shouldn't be part of either tag. But again, maybe comic tags get some sort of free pass.

While I agree that it can be problematic as described, I do believe the simple definition of it helps users who are unfamiliar with the concept differentiate between a regular sequence and a comic.
Though a rewording or clarification of its actual use is certainly needed.

I am starting to understand how it is helpful how it's stated in the sequence page. As in a sequence that has a story/narrative surrounding it would be a comic rather than a sequence (though it should be clarified that a comic has other requirements). The comic page just gives a very poor definition of what actually goes under sequence, which seems to be what spawned the confusion.
Comic wiki: "For single-page stories that don't use panels or that have decidedly shallow narratives, tag sequence instead."

3 and above would be accurate as it basically splits before_and_after from three/four/multi_frame_sequence.

Perfect. It's intriguing to see how far sequence has strayed from these. These are basically exactly what I was thinking of (I must've skimmed over seeing them in the sequence page).

(Also, I want to note that I will be going on a trip soon and won't have time to write big forum posts like these. I'll be back, though! It's been fun bouncing ideas back and forth. Hope it's not too grueling for you, lol.)

hell_ish said:
To me, the current way these tags are used is this:

• [...]
• Multiple_scenes: Anything with continuity, comic or otherwise.
• [...]

And what I think it should be is:

• [...]
• Multiple_scenes: Two or more drawings with a continuous narrative that excludes posts covered by the comic tag.
• Would probably find prominent use in posts with unpanelled sex scenes.
• [...]

Neither of these seem right. A scene is a continuous narrative, and a scene break is when there's a break in the narrative (usually with a change in location or time, but it doesn't have to be, it could just be a change in the overall narrative focus). Where it was about one thing, but now it's about something different. Multiple scenes should have a narrative disconnect, each scene having its own narrative but which aren't directly tied together, as different scenes relate to different things (the reason it's different scenes, instead of a single continuous scene).

post #6232946
For example is multiple images of a single scene, more of a sequence of events in a single narrative, not multiple scenes that divide the narrative.

watsit said:
Neither of these seem right. A scene is a continuous narrative, and a scene break is when there's a break in the narrative (usually with a change in location or time, but it doesn't have to be, it could just be a change in the overall narrative focus). Where it was about one thing, but now it's about something different. Multiple scenes should have a narrative disconnect, each scene having its own narrative but which aren't directly tied together, as different scenes relate to different things (the reason it's different scenes, instead of a single continuous scene).

post #6232946
For example is multiple images of a single scene, more of a sequence of events in a single narrative, not multiple scenes that divide the narrative.

If you look at the multiple_scenes wiki, it states: "This tag is used when one post contains two or more related images [...] which often (but not always) show a progression of events by the same character(s) over time." This is what I refer to when I say how it is currently used. The way it's explained is so expansive that it covers basically any continuity between images. The example images don't help either, with neither showing any break in narrative.

For my suggestion of how it should present, I was mentally toying with the idea of suggesting updating the name of the tag to something else. I also believe it doesn't make perfect sense as is. Or, like I've suggested before, having a different pseudo-comic tag as something should cover unpanelled "comics."

I don't think changing the description of multiple_scenes so far away from its current use is a good idea as it has 61k posts under it and picking out which cover an actual narrative break and which don't (a lot of them don't) would be incredibly taxing.

hell_ish said:
And what I think it should be is:

• Comic: Only paneled or numbered drawings that are telling a story. Not to be tagged alongside multiple_scenes or multiple_images.
• Sequence: Only actual *_frame_sequences. Not explicitly excluded from the other categories listed if applicable.
• Multiple_scenes: Two or more drawings with a continuous narrative that excludes posts covered by the comic tag.
• Would probably find prominent use in posts with unpanelled sex scenes.
• Multiple_images: No change, two or more drawings without any continuous narrative.
• Multiple_locations: There is a location change. Can be tagged alongside any of the above if applicable.

Sorry if I've misunderstood something, though.

No worries, I can see what you are getting at.

Only critique I have is that I feel comic may be tagged with multiple_scenes or multiple_images in extremely rare circumstances, specifically when they appear within a single panel or separate sets of panels.
For example, post #6232946 (an "unpaneled" multiple_scenes image) shown within a single large panel of a multi-panel comic page, or a numbered comic page full of unrelated images (multiple_images).

Yes, that was my point. It's impossible to tell if a panel of a comic is "narratively shallow" or only a single page of a larger comic unless we want to use clues outside of the image itself. That's where my issue with the "single page with a shallow narrative" comes in...what if there's a single page that is part of a larger comic that is neatly paneled (or at least has a page number), but is narratively shallow? Are we allowed to use outside clues when it comes to the comic tag?

...

Again, I'm not sure how much TWYS is allowed to be put to the side for comics. I would assume it isn't. And if it's not, I don't think it's unavoidable: I would say first_page/end_page would require a "1" in the corner or it clearly stating "end"/"thanks for reading" at the end.

Comic does allow single-panel pages as long as they "retain some comic structure, such as frames or page numbering." so that would fall under page numbering imo.

Meta tags are not affected by the restrictions of TWYS, as TWYS only strictly applies to general tags (see the Tag What You See policy page).

As both first_page & end_page don't imply page_number, I think it is safe to assume that a visible page number is not required.
Moreover, artists may put a "1" or an end page number on the cover_page (e.g., post #2809982) or back_cover itself (e.g., post #364180), so having page numbers is not a reliable way of determining which page is the actual first/last.

Though I would agree that the "narrative" element of a comic page is most definitely optional, as long as a visible page number or comic elements are seen.

It looks like the first example you provided probably used the tag to allow it to be approved, but it being part of a pool should uphold that instead. I'd say posts like those just shouldn't be part of either tag. But again, maybe comic tags get some sort of free pass.

Yes, posts that are zero_pictured are allowed as long as it is part of a larger pool.

I am starting to understand how it is helpful how it's stated in the sequence page. As in a sequence that has a story/narrative surrounding it would be a comic rather than a sequence (though it should be clarified that a comic has other requirements). The comic page just gives a very poor definition of what actually goes under sequence, which seems to be what spawned the confusion.
Comic wiki: "For single-page stories that don't use panels or that have decidedly shallow narratives, tag sequence instead."

Perfect. It's intriguing to see how far sequence has strayed from these. These are basically exactly what I was thinking of (I must've skimmed over seeing them in the sequence page).

The wikis definitely need to be worked on to clarify how they should actually be tagged, though the actual definitions will need more people's comments/community consensus first.