Topic: e621 moderation and their "quality standards"

So, what happened. And is happening. My good-enough quality anims and renders get frequently rejected for quote-unquote "not meeting minimal artistic standards".

Now I know what you're thinking: "some random kid venting about his 5 minutes of work Blender cubes renders getting deleted", but- but no.

The content that I'm trying to produce and upload has similar, even improving quality than I already have on my profile (the first animation got through 9 circles of hell and re-appeals just to exist) and moderators keep rejecting them.

Okay, maybe these so-and-so called "artistic standards" are actually high and in order to upload you have to finish animation university and the content here is always top-tier. The "top-tier" content in question: yoshreveluv's anims...

Oh, and by the way, most of the vids of this artist are approved by the same mod who rejected my older anims. Not only that, but that artist also has a yellow checkmark and is still uploading his very talented animations with them getting approved.
_{man, I highly doubt that he is even a legal adult, judging by the art style}

And if you're trying to accuse me of nitpicking mods' minor slip-ups _{(though, it's very difficult to slip-up on "accidentally" giving these kinds of artists full approval and a "verified" check)}, just look closer. There is not-so-skillful content that is approved by the mods.
And to people saying: "ooh you are making 3d anims, 2d is harder" fuck naw. While, yes, getting the Roblox models is not that hard, I had to re-model to make the characters more NSFW-appealing and then set up the scene and composition, adapt if for the first-person view, import, fix and improve the materials and add post processing this shit. Basically, what I'm trying to convey is my 3D skill is better than 2D skill of the artist I've mentioned before.

Fellow e621 artists, are you having/ever had the same problem? I wanna know that I'm not alone here.

Did you know that Gelbooru doesn't allow artists to self-upload onto their site? The reasoning is simple: When you self-upload your own art, you risk being so emotionally invested in it that you will get your feelings hurt should it be deleted. If the artist can't maintain a mature and professional attitude about it, there's going to be unnecessary drama.

While we don't have Gelbooru's artists-can't-upload policy, there's still some merit in its reasoning:

Uploading One's Own Art is a Good Way to Get Your Feelings Hurt

Posting one's own art is severely looked down upon, and there are two reasons behind this:

    Firstly, artists tend to be biased when it comes to judging the quality of their own work. What looks good to you may be regarded as mediocre to Gelbooru moderators.
    Secondly, more suitable sites to upload your own art to include Deviantart and Pixiv.

    Admins and moderators are especially harsh on self-posting artists, lashing out penalties without remorse. The surest way to feature your art on Gelbooru is to show immense talent and skill elsewhere, and with that, captivate some fans on the other side of the Internet into uploading your art.

When it comes to 3D and animated content, there's a higher bar for a self-uploading artist to clear than with other art. For one thing, the assets used are rarely their own creation, so Janitors have to look at things like posing, lighting, how well it's animated, how well the picture/animation was rendered, and whether the file itself was competently compiled and optimized.

You've been told about how to deal with this sort of thing before, but here it is fully spelled out:

If you feel a post has been deleted in error, the best course of action is to DM the Janitor — unless they're Mairo — and politely ask the Janitor about it. If that is unsatisfactory — or it's Mairo, politely escalate it up the ladder to the Lead Janitor then an Admin then Rainbow Dash.

(The reason why Mairo doesn't entertain these appeals anymore is that he's dealt with them so many times over his many years as Janitor that it's like smashing his head against a cinder block wall for him anymore dealing with artists and uploaders time and time again.)

I totally understand how you feel, but you've got to remember that it's not personal. Never message until you've cooled down and can think straight. A man in a passion rides a mad horse.

Publicly insulting someone else's art as a point about why you think your posts should not have been deleted is certainly a choice.

You, as with any other complaints about unfair deletions, would get routinely shut down for not understanding our Uploading Guidelines & Quality Standards requirements.

This is not your first complaint about our Quality Standards and the answer you will receive will be no different than before.
You have been told what do to if you don't agree with another janitor's judgment.
You have been told how pointing at another artist's approved work is not a good argument.
You have been shown what our Quality Standards are exactly when it comes to "artistic" issues.

If you simply could not accept how our site functions and how our Quality Standards are, please do yourself a favour and stop posting here.
Also, leaving your grievances out to dry like that on your profile bio could be considered as Disruptive Behavior.

Not that you asked for opinions here, but i'm gonna give you one anyway. I find your art bad quality as well. Renders are quite low quality with jagged edges. Plus it's very difficult to see what's going on in them.

thegreatwolfgang said:
You, as with any other complaints about unfair deletions, would get routinely shut down for not understanding our Uploading Guidelines & Quality Standards requirements.

This is not your first complaint about our Quality Standards and the answer you will receive will be no different than before.
You have been told what do to if you don't agree with another janitor's judgment.
You have been told how pointing at another artist's approved work is not a good argument.
You have been shown what our Quality Standards are exactly when it comes to "artistic" issues.

If you simply could not accept how our site functions and how our Quality Standards are, please do yourself a favour and stop posting here.
Also, leaving your grievances out to dry like that on your profile bio could be considered as Disruptive Behavior.

Okay. I haven't noticed that reply for my previous forum post before and now I've read it. I understand now what I've done wrong (except for the minimal required standards part because from what I've understood, my recently-deleted videos are compliant with what you've stated on here↓)

With how simple it is to use SFM to create halfway decent 3D artwork we have some special considerations for those:

simply importing a pre-made model is not acceptable, the model(s) must be properly posed
the pose chosen must look as natural as possible without any clipping or deformed joints / body parts
textures must be of good quality and actually somewhat match to each other (no checkers board dick on oiled up skin models)
animated loops must at least loop decently without extreme jumps between start and end point(s)

I am being stubborn on uploading on r34/e621 because these are the only popular (when you think: "fandom porn", you'll most likely think: "rule34" or rarely: "e621"), non-corporate (by corporate I mean sites like PH, X/Twitter (aka The Grok's CP Hellhole) or BSky) platforms I know. And I can't access DeviantArt since it's blocked in my country and using a VPN results in DevianArt not letting me in.

And I apologize if/that I did a lot of cringe, since I'm not very familiar with how things work on e621 and rule34 (I don't mean I don't know the guidelines).
It is just confusing and frustrating for an amateur artist who just joined in to share his work for the mass to just receive a big red notice "Your work is low quality" (which, again, is not, in my, others' and directly written e621 rules' opinion: the deleted animations in question are decently looped, the imported models are decently re-modeled and there is no such things as unnatural animation (this is Roblox porn, so a very minor limb disembodiment is fine) or terrible textures) and then to see that less effort and quality artwork is fully approved and curated.

e621 probably isn't for you. Try Itaku or Newgrounds. Both of those sites allow video uploads and don't really have any standards for artistic quality. Despite how friendly the site is to artists, e621 is fundamentally not a personal portfolio site or art sharing platform. It is a curated gallery.

Also, it would do you some good to stop insulting other artists for the sake of making your own art look better. It doesn't make your art look better, it just makes you look petty and spiteful. That kind of behaviour can come back to bite you down the line.

I pretty much feel like Bowser right now from the Super Mario Bros animated film in the scene where he is shrinked and has just finished a painting and after showing it to Mario and Luigi, Mario replies: "It's trash" and Bowser genuinely freaks out: "HOW DARE YOU LOOK AT MY MASTERPIECE ON PAPER"

comptnt-gooning said:
I pretty much feel like Bowser right now from the Super Mario Bros animated film in the scene where he is shrinked and has just finished a painting and after showing it to Mario and Luigi, Mario replies: "It's trash" and Bowser genuinely freaks out: "HOW DARE YOU LOOK AT MY MASTERPIECE ON PAPER"

I can't tell if this is a joke or said seriously.
As for animation, check out roblox animated 3d_(artwork) and see what has been approved for the future reference.

comptnt-gooning said:
I am being stubborn on uploading on r34/e621 because these are the only popular (when you think: "fandom porn", you'll most likely think: "rule34" or rarely: "e621"), non-corporate (by corporate I mean sites like PH, X/Twitter (aka The Grok's CP Hellhole) or BSky) platforms I know. And I can't access DeviantArt since it's blocked in my country and using a VPN results in DevianArt not letting me in.

That's fair.

Okay. I haven't noticed that reply for my previous forum post before and now I've read it. I understand now what I've done wrong (except for the minimal required standards part because from what I've understood, my recently-deleted videos are compliant with what you've stated on here↓)
...
And I apologize if/that I did a lot of cringe, since I'm not very familiar with how things work on e621 and rule34 (I don't mean I don't know the guidelines).
It is just confusing and frustrating for an amateur artist who just joined in to share his work for the mass to just receive a big red notice "Your work is low quality" (which, again, is not, in my, others' and directly written e621 rules' opinion: the deleted animations in question are decently looped, the imported models are decently re-modeled and there is no such things as unnatural animation (this is Roblox porn, so a very minor limb disembodiment is fine) or terrible textures) and then to see that less effort and quality artwork is fully approved and curated.

Yeah, it's hard for an artist to see what the issues with their works might be. I've been there, too, albeit not with animations.

What you can do is ask the deleting Janitor for some feedback on why they deleted your post. As long as you're polite and respectful, we'll try to help. (Of course, when it's Mairo, just go to Strikerman instead.) Many years ago, when I politely asked why one of my pictures had been deleted, the Janitor was kind enough to give me a quick and basic breakdown of what issues stood out to him. It was very helpful as I'd not seen them myself. I ended up redoing the picture which was subsequently accepted.

Alternatively, if you can, feel free to join the Discord and ask for feedback there. You'll be able to get input from a wider range of people.

I personally have not uploaded any of my 3D renders because I'm still learning 3D and my work isn't anything special yet. However, I haven't had any issues with my 2D art getting approved.

I've also never had issues with another artist's work getting deleted/getting trapped in approval hell (20+ days without approval, etc)

clawstripe said:

When it comes to 3D and animated content, there's a higher bar for a self-uploading artist to clear than with other art. For one thing, the assets used are rarely their own creation, so Janitors have to look at things like posing, lighting, how well it's animated, how well the picture/animation was rendered, and whether the file itself was competently compiled and optimized.

This interesting to read and makes sense. I would like to ask, because this will be relevant to me in the future, is a self-made 3D model factored into the quality determination?

Say a 3D model that is original and decently made (no obvious errors in the final render), does the original nature of the model lend any credence to the overall quality of the image as a whole, or is it considered irrelevant criteria?

Obviously lighting, animation, and render quality are hugely important factors in 3D art so there's no argument there. I'm just curious whether all 3D art is judged the same (model originality irrelevant) or whether artists uploading renders that contain their own original modeling work are judged separately/differently in any way.

emionix said:

This interesting to read and makes sense. I would like to ask, because this will be relevant to me in the future, is a self-made 3D model factored into the quality determination?

Say a 3D model that is original and decently made (no obvious errors in the final render), does the original nature of the model lend any credence to the overall quality of the image as a whole, or is it considered irrelevant criteria?

Obviously lighting, animation, and render quality are hugely important factors in 3D art so there's no argument there. I'm just curious whether all 3D art is judged the same (model originality irrelevant) or whether artists uploading renders that contain their own original modeling work are judged separately/differently in any way.

About the models and the animation itself. The model bases (the Roblox rig and the most part of the textures) were imported, however, to make them appealing, I manually modeled body shapes (abs, curves, tiddies, etc.) and NSFW parts, unlike, seemingly, a lot of people, who seem (means that is not definitely true, I'm just suspicious of that) to be using ready assets, plapped onto the model and just make the animation right inside the Roblox Studio engine (which is easier to learn and faster to render (afaik, most of them are just screen-recorded because Roblox Studio is not an animation/rendering software) than in Blender, but more limited, and, imo, it's harder to make smooth animation without custom rigs). The lighting there is also decent. I wouldn't say Sony Pictures type of graphics, but the lighting is decent, rather high-contrast, low light level (that's why some people might not like my renders)

Though, must admit, there is a flaw on one of my recently deleted animations loops, there is a noise on the fire-lit parts, but it's not eye-soring and forgivable (the only way to avoid it could be rendering on Cycles instead of Eevee, but that would take shit ton of time on my potato laptop GTX 1650 because the scene location had a lot of places for the light to bounce, which slowed the render). And I could let the moderator reject this one, but the second one, with Kaiju (the godzilla-looking one) from Kaiju Paradise had good legible dynamic lighting, also smooth animation animation and rendered in Cycles. If you want to see them, join my discord server/telegram channel (that's in my profile/artist wiki)

clawstripe said:
That's fair.

Yeah, it's hard for an artist to see what the issues with their works might be. I've been there, too, albeit not with animations.

What you can do is ask the deleting Janitor for some feedback on why they deleted your post. As long as you're polite and respectful, we'll try to help. (Of course, when it's Mairo, just go to Strikerman instead.) Many years ago, when I politely asked why one of my pictures had been deleted, the Janitor was kind enough to give me a quick and basic breakdown of what issues stood out to him. It was very helpful as I'd not seen them myself. I ended up redoing the picture which was subsequently accepted.

Alternatively, if you can, feel free to join the Discord and ask for feedback there. You'll be able to get input from a wider range of people.

And also, I've already mailed Strikerman before about my first animation first being deleted for "low quality" and then the improved version getting deleted for allegedly being a "duplicate post" and he undeleted it.
And I have already mailed the recent deletion executor. Though, at first, in the mail, I came not very polite (without offending or insulting, I just said an edited quote of Handsome Jack from the peak game Borderlands 2 because this quote was just perfect _{(NO, NOT THE "I WILL PAY YOU TO oof YOURSELF" ONE, DON'T DO THIS SHIT IRL, YOU WILL FUCKING DIE AND YOU WON'T RESPAWN AT THE NEARBY NEW-U STATION AND RECEIVE 4 ERIDIUM)}, but then apologized in the same letter and explained that I'm just mad and frustrated at the fact that uploading on these sites feels like gambling. Even though your animation is considered good by you and others, it doesn't mean mods will like it (also, i will keep saying "moderators" instead of "janitors" because this translation just seems weird to me)

drato said:
Not that you asked for opinions here, but i'm gonna give you one anyway. I find your art bad quality as well. Renders are quite low quality with jagged edges. Plus it's very difficult to see what's going on in them.

I appreciate your constructive criticism. Although, I didn't get the "jagged edges part". You mean the low resolution?

clawstripe said:
Yeah, it's hard for an artist to see what the issues with their works might be. I've been there, too, albeit not with animations.

I am generally freaking out not because people tell me that my content is not perfect, but because that big-ass red sign "you are incompliant with our standards" and an uploading penalty without explaining how are my posts worse than some others intensifies the feeling of getting kicked in the balls (I'm not the fan of CBT just in case), meanwhile, other people in the comments and on other platforms strongly disagree with the moderation's choice. So, naturally, me and the people who support me get a feeling that the mods are jackasses (especially after seeing a lot less quality content being curated). And I have to wait for the janitor to reply to my dm (I don't blame them, I understand that they have their own lives and families), which makes me more and more nervous and impatient. And this seriously demotivates and gaslights me into thinking that my quality is actually trash no matter how hard I try.

Why don't I bother uploading on other platforms? Bsky and other corporate or niche platforms is scary because it's unlikely that people will see my content since a lot of them are not dedicated to fandom specific search (by that, I mean if a person wants, for example, some niche Roblox game porn, they will more likely open rule34/e621 and search it up and I, hypothetically, will be ready to provide hypothetically 2 thousand niche fandom fans with it and they will appreciate it since there's barely/no videos of this fandom with that level of quality (example: my only currently approved video that was deleted for the same reason and I had to wait for an appeal approval. There is no more long playtime Kaiju Paradise nsfw videos, only short animations with barely/no plot). Bsky and other twitter-wannabes rely on recommendation algorithms and I'll just get overshadowed by more talented and experienced artists or more popular franchises. A user, when going to these platforms, if looking for porn, will most likely rely on their fyp instead of specifically searching for a tag. And I hypothetically will only get 50 views at most, because those 50 people tried searching up that exact fandom porn and magically I was on the first place (which is unlikely considering search there is also reliant on the recommendation algorithms. And I don't wanna join The Algorithm Cult)

comptnt-gooning said:
I am generally freaking out not because people tell me that my content is not perfect, but because that big-ass red sign "you are incompliant with our standards" and an uploading penalty without explaining how are my posts worse than some others intensifies the feeling of getting kicked in the balls (I'm not the fan of CBT just in case), meanwhile, other people in the comments and on other platforms strongly disagree with the moderation's choice. So, naturally, me and the people who support me get a feeling that the mods are jackasses (especially after seeing a lot less quality content being curated). And I have to wait for the janitor to reply to my dm (I don't blame them, I understand that they have their own lives and families), which makes me more and more nervous and impatient. And this seriously demotivates and gaslights me into thinking that my quality is actually trash no matter how hard I try.

I can't really say anything nice but good news is that some of your artworks got approved so not everything you make will be rejected. They're just a little stricter on animation. They're not saying your artworks are trash. Indeed all of your submissions have positive scores, so you should be proud of it.

Why don't I bother uploading on other platforms? Bsky and other corporate or niche platforms is scary because it's unlikely that people will see my content since a lot of them are not dedicated to fandom specific search (by that, I mean if a person wants, for example, some niche Roblox game porn, they will more likely open rule34/e621 and search it up and I, hypothetically, will be ready to provide hypothetically 2 thousand niche fandom fans with it and they will appreciate it since there's barely/no videos of this fandom with that level of quality (example: my only currently approved video that was deleted for the same reason and I had to wait for an appeal approval. There is no more long playtime Kaiju Paradise nsfw videos, only short animations with barely/no plot). Bsky and other twitter-wannabes rely on recommendation algorithms and I'll just get overshadowed by more talented and experienced artists or more popular franchises. A user, when going to these platforms, if looking for porn, will most likely rely on their fyp instead of specifically searching for a tag. And I hypothetically will only get 50 views at most, because those 50 people tried searching up that exact fandom porn and magically I was on the first place (which is unlikely considering search there is also reliant on the recommendation algorithms. And I don't wanna join The Algorithm Cult)

lmao same. I have niche interest. My main platform doesn't support detailed tagging like e621 so I prefer posting artworks here. But I also skip some of them due to the quality standard and/or other parts of the uploading guideline.
Btw, if you're only posting porn, you can also post on rule34 or paheal.

clawstripe said:

(The reason why Mairo doesn't entertain these appeals anymore is that he's dealt with them so many times over his many years as Janitor that it's like smashing his head against a cinder block wall for him anymore dealing with artists and uploaders time and time again.)

Aw, crap, really?

Now I feel bad for bugging him about propper formatting. When I animated in 3D, Still not sure
on the proper formatting needed to be A.O.K here. Think I'm squeaking by with the 2-D animations
but still getting slapped with "Better Version in Source." now and again, Dood!
post #5583979
=‿=)

As for the topic at hand, Yup posting as the artist is tricky biz!
Honestly, if I didn't feel Even MORE uncomfortable with someone else posting my
work with or without my say-so, I wouldn't recommend it. To an artist, their work is the
best work ever and that's by nature. It's how we motivate ourselves to draw! When our work
isn't the best, we make it the best, improving 'til we reach a place where we love it the
most, Dood!

Though art is subjective, one person's best could be another's bare minimum. And the
tricky part about that mentally is that we as peeps tend to see things in black in white
when working with rainbows. everyone's colorblind, basically. One sees black with Blue and
Another sees purple with white. No one's wrong or right in art judgment, Just personal taste,
Dood.

That's what makes sites like e621 and, apparently, Gelbooru such tricky beasts. The way they
are presented, it seems almost tailor-made to make you think art does have a definitive good or bad,
through three steps, Dood.

Approval

"What, that wasn't good enough?"

This in and of itself is very cruel for peeps who care deeply about their art, on both ends.
Rejection feels like someone is personally telling you that "Your art is bad, terrible, or
trash meant to be rejected," when in reality it's just that the art doesn't match the feelings
here. But it's even worse if it gets accepted since it makes the times when you don't get accepted.
'Feel like you messed up or that you're declining when it's really just the vibe thing all over
again. But hey, to be fair, it's really hard to see that behind words like "accepted" and "rejected,"
Dood!

Score

"Negatives, is it really that bad..."

The concept of a score is a downright evil idea. Peeps now have a number to
attach to the worth of a piece. A number that tells you-

What's good:
post #2346230

And what's Bad:
post #6130571

It is so hard to separate the personal feeling of a piece when there's a number
of peeps who say they like it, right in front of you! Pieces feel like untouchable
masterpieces when they break 100, and like the worst of the worst when they hit -20.
When in reality it's personal opinion, what's expected to be seen on the site,
with a healthy amount of bandwagoning. If you have an element remover, I'd highly
recommend removing the display; it's just the pits, Dood!

Comments

"Don't. Read. The. Comments."

This rule managed to make its way into a Disney movie for a reason, Dood
We love our work, We raised that work from an idea, and we love everything about it.
showing it to a stranger and expecting them to instantly feel the same level of love
is just unreasonable. Some people don't like furries; some people don't like guys,
some peeps just don't like anything they love on principle. And they will LET YOU KNOW!

Had it happen to me: https://e621.net/forum_topics/61297
it can happen to you, and you will take it personally! Again the black and white thing,
thinking art is a sliding scale of good and bad, not a spectrum. But comments come in
NUMBERS, so it's not just "he" thinks it's bad; it's "they" think it's bad. Like scores,
it makes you second-guess your own perception and wonder if you should have even made
this idea. completely disregarding the passion you felt before, in favor of feeling like
the idea was a curse instead of a boon, Dood!

That's a long-winded way of saying curated places are horrible and feel horrible for artists.
when it's not you posting your own art, you're one of the group. Judging the other but when your
the one making the art, each point, each comment, each approval feels all too real, Dood. T‿T)

fluffysoup said:
Btw, if you're only posting porn, you can also post on rule34 or paheal.

Speaking of rule34... I've tried, man. Heck, that was the platform of my choice at first. However, in order to upload videos here, you need at least 5 uploaded images on your profile. And each time I tried to make a bunch of renders, they get deleted for the same reason: "git gud". That's why I moved to e621. And after I posted similar quality, but not the same renders on e621 (the approved ones), they quickly got re-posted by a bot (obviously with crediting me) on rule34, meaning, that if I want to upload the videos, I have to upload the renders on r34 first, then on e621 and gamble with a winrate of 0%.

But now I don't know where else to go. Newgrounds, as mentioned before, afaik is too niche for people who want some specific fandom porn (unless, maybe, it's a Newgrounds-related fandom like Friday Night Funkin', but still, most of the people will go to rule34)

If you have an issue with a deletion, contact the janitor who removed the post for an appeal or create a private help ticket on our Discord. Starting a new forum thread every time a post is deleted about it isn't the best approach.