Why is this rule so inconsistent? Especially between admins and janitors? I have gotten several uploads approved of the Reddit avatar (a humanoid) by janitors but suddenly a post that is no different gets removed by an admin.

Why are the rules of this site so inconsistent on what is allowed to post? You'd think there'd be some actual guidelines or something. Because if posts like that aren't allowed, why were others approved? It's either an issue with the admins or an issue with the janitors, but someone simply wanting to upload art for others to see gets punished because of inconsistency. Several posts were approved, so I posted another, only for it to get removed shortly after. That's not my fault.

Posts that were approved:
https://e621.net/posts/6028005?q=reddie_%28dumbnuts47%29
https://e621.net/posts/6028019?q=reddie_%28dumbnuts47%29
https://e621.net/posts/6038114?q=reddie_%28dumbnuts47%29
https://e621.net/posts/6038121?q=reddie_%28dumbnuts47%29
https://e621.net/posts/6038155?q=reddie_%28dumbnuts47%29
https://e621.net/posts/6117155?q=reddie_%28dumbnuts47%29

A post that was NOT approved:
https://x.com/dumbnuts47/status/2011584763711406585?s=20

Make this make sense. I beg of you.

The approved posts has more clearly defined visible non-human features. Than the one that was rejected. You can barely tell that the puff antenna is connected to the head, and might look more like a piece of head decoration instead of part of the anatomy, to some people.

To directly quote the Uploading Guidelines:

↑ Humans and e621:

Pure¹ humans are only allowed as long as they are part of an otherwise furry-centric image. If a page, or an image, of an otherwise furry-centric comic contains only humans, then those pages will also be kept to keep the comic complete.

As such:

• Anything that does not contain anthropomorphic characters or animals as part of their focus will be deleted.
• If it appears like a human it counts as a human, regardless of what in-universe lore specifies.
• The things that make humans not-human under our rules are visible, anatomical deviations from the standard human.
• Examples are the presence of animal body parts (dog ears, cat tail, pig snout, horse penis, etc.), alien body parts, plant body parts, etc.
• This means that orcs, elves, plant-people, humanoid aliens, are all fine.
• A different skin color does not make a human relevant.
• Costumes, clothes, accessories, etc. do not make a human relevant.

_{¹ If any sort of non-human traits are present, the character in question is no longer a pure human, but a humanoid for tagging purposes.}

As Slyroon, I'll emphasis visible, anatomical deviations.

Eh the third and fifth example there are on the more 'human' side of grey area and probably shouldn't have been approved. The rest do at least have visible bear ears.

Regardless, you upload grey-area images at your own risk. Whether or not the images get approved is a crapshoot. If you think the ruling was wrong (in either direction) you can generally bring it up with whoever made the call unless it's Mairo.

One idea I have been talking is the notion of default blacklisting non-desireable content, basically anything "not furry", so that even when they do get accepted, they do not show up to users by default, making it even more apparent that this is not the kind of content we want here even if some is here.
This is not too dissimilar of many anime/japan orientated boorus blacklisting "furry" by default.

aacafah said:
To directly quote the Uploading Guidelines:
As Slyroon, I'll emphasis visible, anatomical deviations.

The fact that elves count but the Reddit avatar doesn’t is insane. You can post porn of Link and Zelda, who are just humans with pointy ears, but not the cartoony alien/robot thing that doesn’t even remotely look human. One is a small white thing with no nose and no pupils and an antenna, the other is just a human with pointy ears.

The logic on this site is nonexistent. Either it’s all okay or none of it is. Only reason this site is better than r34 is that this site bans AI content and reposts.

secretsnake said:
The fact that elves count but the Reddit avatar doesn’t is insane. You can post porn of Link and Zelda, who are just humans with pointy ears, but not the cartoony alien/robot thing that doesn’t even remotely look human. One is a small white thing with no nose and no pupils and an antenna, the other is just a human with pointy ears.

We don't approve posts by default based on their species. We approve posts on a case-by-case basis on how well it fits with our Uploading Guidelines.

A post with Link could easily be deleted if we don't see his elf ears (or any non-human features), he would be treated as if he were a human visually and deleted.

The logic on this site is nonexistent. Either it’s all okay or none of it is. Only reason this site is better than r34 is that this site bans AI content and reposts.

Janitors are humans as well, not drones all connected to a singular hivemind.
Everything is approved and deleted based on their best judgment and interpretation of the Uploading Guidelines.

Just because one post is approved doesn't mean it can't be undone by another janitor, the same goes for deleted posts.
If you want to appeal a deletion, there is also a proper way of doing it.

secretsnake said:
The fact that elves count but the Reddit avatar doesn’t is insane. You can post porn of Link and Zelda, who are just humans with pointy ears, but not the cartoony alien/robot thing that doesn’t even remotely look human. One is a small white thing with no nose and no pupils and an antenna, the other is just a human with pointy ears.

without the antenna there'a very little difference between it and a highly-stylized human.

I mean, if we start saying that any small white thing with no nose and simple eyes can count, then stuff like the Homestuck kids are allowed.

thegreatwolfgang said:
We don't approve posts by default based on their species. We approve posts on a case-by-case basis on how well it fits with our Uploading Guidelines.

A post with Link could easily be deleted if he don't see his elf ears (or any non-human features), he would be treated as if he were a human visually and deleted.

Janitors are humans as well, not drones all connected to a singular hivemind.
Everything is approved and deleted based on their best judgment and interpretation of the Uploading Guidelines.

Just because one post is approved doesn't mean it can be undone by another janitor, the same goes for deleted posts.
If you want to appeal a deletion, there is a also proper way of doing it.

I wrote a message, but I doubt I’ll get an answer. I haven’t trusted writing a message to whoever deletes posts ever since I had a post deleted by Mairo and redirected to NotMeNotYou and never got an answer despite multiple attempts for months.

I have not trusted anyone with authority on this site ever since. Because people can just delete stuff for violating a rule and not explaining how said rule was violated. Forums with random users have been more helpful. So here I am.

dba_afish said:
without the antenna there'a very little difference between it and a highly-stylized human.

I mean, if we start saying that any small white thing with no nose and simple eyes can count, then stuff like the Homestuck kids are allowed.

Without pointy ears, Link is literally just a human. If that counts, Spock from Star Trek counts.

secretsnake said:
I wrote a message, but I doubt I’ll get an answer. I haven’t trusted writing a message to whoever deletes posts ever since I had a post deleted by Mairo and redirected to NotMeNotYou and never got an answer despite multiple attempts for months.

I have not trusted anyone with authority on this site ever since. Because people can just delete stuff for violating a rule and not explaining how said rule was violated. Forums with random users have been more helpful. So here I am.

The staff hierarchy has changed.

• @Strikerman is the janitor lead and would handle any escalations coming from the janitor level.
• Any appeals to them must have been due to their own deletions or disagreement with another janitor's reasoning (after you have contacted them).
• @Rainbow_Dash is the admin lead and would handle any issues relating to admin or staff matters or instances of staff misconduct.
• Any appeals to them must have been escalated from the janitor level.
• @NotMeNotYou is the site lead and would only handle important site matters and issues relating to takedowns/DNP now.
• Any appeals to them must have been escalated from the admin level, or else it won't be considered.

Considering your post was deleted by the admin @spe, I'd suggest for you to contact them first and then escalate the issue to @Rainbow_Dash and upwards if necessary.

secretsnake said:
Without pointy ears, Link is literally just a human. If that counts, Spock from Star Trek counts.

huh? of course spock counts.

why would vulcans not count while hylians and other elf-y species do?

dba_afish said:
huh? of course spock counts.

why would vulcans not count while hylians and other elf-y species do?

Notice how none of these are a solo picture of Spock. Guarantee you if I posted one, it’d get removed, but a solo post of link would stay.

Mt. Lady from My Hero Academia is also allowed on this site despite literally just being a human with horns as headgear. But the Reddit avatar isn’t allowed.

Marge Simpson and Leela from futurama are allowed but not the Reddit avatar.

Also here’s a whole bunch of Homestuck shit that’s allowed on here but not the Reddit avatar. https://e621.net/posts?tags=jade_harley

secretsnake said:
Notice how none of these are a solo picture of Spock. Guarantee you if I posted one, it’d get removed, but a solo post of link would stay.

Perhaps consider there are only 34 pictures of Spock posted in the entire existence of this site?
Also, notice how none of them got deleted for being human-only.

Mt. Lady from My Hero Academia is also allowed on this site despite literally just being a human with horns as headgear. But the Reddit avatar isn’t allowed.

Look like a horned_humanoid to me, but feel free to flag any instances you find too human-like.

Marge Simpson and Leela from futurama are allowed but not the Reddit avatar.

Both are also routinely deleted if deemed too human-like, see marge_simpson delreason:*human* & turanga_leela delreason:*human*.

Also here’s a whole bunch of Homestuck shit that’s allowed on here but not the Reddit avatar. https://e621.net/posts?tags=jade_harley

Also routinely deleted if deemed too human-like, see jade_harley delreason:*human*.

I suggest taking a long read of our Uploading Guidelines on 'Humans and e621'.

Also, the mere presence of so many reddit humanoid posts completely invalidates your argument that "Reddit avatar isn’t allowed."

secretsnake said:
Notice how none of these are a solo picture of Spock. Guarantee you if I posted one, it’d get removed, but a solo post of link would stay.

As long as the pointy ears are visible a solo Spock post would be acceptable, as long as it met the rest of the Uploading Guidelines as well, of course. Of the nine deleted Spock posts, two were deleted ages ago for being screenshots, three for being commercial content, two for not having sufficient artistic quality, one was replaced by a new post, and one was deleted by the automod after 30 days because the Janitors weren't sure if it qualified for "Extreme Human Focus" or not. That last one could have squeaked in because of his ears, but there is a limit to the amount of relevancy heavy lifting pointy ears can do.

Mt. Lady from My Hero Academia is also allowed on this site despite literally just being a human with horns as headgear. But the Reddit avatar isn’t allowed.

Since her horns tend to look they're attached to her head, then yes. The last I checked, humans don't normally have horns coming out of their heads.

Marge Simpson and Leela from futurama are allowed but not the Reddit avatar.

Marge is a yellow human. She's not allowed on site by herself (the Simpsons Rule: funky skin colors do not a nonhuman make). Leela is allowed because of her one eye, centered like a cyclops (so it had better be visible and obvious in the picture), which not even one-eyed humans can manage.

Also here’s a whole bunch of Homestuck shit that’s allowed on here but not the Reddit avatar. https://e621.net/posts?tags=jade_harley

Those Jade Harley posts of her being fully human are part of pools in which a nonhuman plays a significant role. Human only posts are allowed if part of a pool or parent/child sequence as they help provide context for the relevant posts.

But now you're getting a glimmer of how difficult it is for a Janitor to decide on borderline humanoid content. We're not deleting and accepting these things haphazardly. We're taking the time to run through a mental checklist to see if the post can be accepted or not. If we're too unsure about it, we'll throw it up on the staff channels on the Discord to discuss and vote on it. Odds are, that if you appealed to Spe again or Rainbow Dash, they'll do exactly that, and their decision will be based on what the staff decide as a group.

But please remember: e621 is a furry-themed booru. Humanoids frequently get in only on technicality. We've got to draw the line somewhere, and pointy humanoid ears is more-or-less where it's drawn. We aren't always happy about it, but it's nice to have some idea where a usable line is.

clawstripe said:
As long as the pointy ears are visible a solo Spock post would be acceptable, as long as it met the rest of the Uploading Guidelines as well, of course. Of the nine deleted Spock posts, two were deleted ages ago for being screenshots, three for being commercial content, two for not having sufficient artistic quality, one was replaced by a new post, and one was deleted by the automod after 30 days because the Janitors weren't sure if it qualified for "Extreme Human Focus" or not. That last one could have squeaked in because of his ears, but there is a limit to the amount of relevancy heavy lifting pointy ears can do.

Since her horns tend to look they're attached to her head, then yes. The last I checked, humans don't normally have horns coming out of their heads.

Marge is a yellow human. She's not allowed on site by herself (the Simpsons Rule: funky skin colors do not a nonhuman make). Leela is allowed because of her one eye, centered like a cyclops (so it had better be visible and obvious in the picture), which not even one-eyed humans can manage.

Those Jade Harley posts of her being fully human are part of pools in which a nonhuman plays a significant role. Human only posts are allowed if part of a pool or parent/child sequence as they help provide context for the relevant posts.

But now you're getting a glimmer of how difficult it is for a Janitor to decide on borderline humanoid content. We're not deleting and accepting these things haphazardly. We're taking the time to run through a mental checklist to see if the post can be accepted or not. If we're too unsure about it, we'll throw it up on the staff channels on the Discord to discuss and vote on it. Odds are, that if you appealed to Spe again or Rainbow Dash, they'll do exactly that, and their decision will be based on what the staff decide as a group.

But please remember: e621 is a furry-themed booru. Humanoids frequently get in only on technicality. We've got to draw the line somewhere, and pointy humanoid ears is more-or-less where it's drawn. We aren't always happy about it, but it's nice to have some idea where a usable line is.

Reddit’s mascot, Snoo, is literally an alien. A humanoid alien in the fact into shaped human, but is not human. It does not look human. If Marvin the Martian and Queen Tyr'ahnee are allowed here, there is no justification on removing Snoo.

This is hypocrisy. “How difficult it is for a janitor” my ass. This site is so biased and almost no one ever has to answer for any wrongdoing or abuse of power. Just wanted to post porn, it’s not complicated. Snoo looks less human than Link. It’s not fair.

secretsnake said:
Reddit’s mascot, Snoo, is literally an alien. A humanoid alien in the fact into shaped human, but is not human. It does not look human. If Marvin the Martian and Queen Tyr'ahnee are allowed here, there is no justification on removing Snoo.

To be clear, whether something is allowed here is not based on who the character is, their lore or what they generally look like in official media or most fanart, but what they appear to be in any given post. If a solo Marvin the Martian post doesn't look human in one post, and does look human in another post, the latter post will be deleted and the former can stay (subject to other guidelines).

secretsnake said:
Reddit’s mascot, Snoo, is literally an alien. A humanoid alien in the fact into shaped human, but is not human. It does not look human. If Marvin the Martian and Queen Tyr'ahnee are allowed here, there is no justification on removing Snoo.

This is hypocrisy. “How difficult it is for a janitor” my ass. This site is so biased and almost no one ever has to answer for any wrongdoing or abuse of power. Just wanted to post porn, it’s not complicated. Snoo looks less human than Link. It’s not fair.

dude, please at least check if your examples are true before saying anything, because like:queen_tyr'ahnee status:deleted.

---

again. it's all on a case-by-case basis. no characters or species are considered relevant across the board simply by being labled whatever species. this even applies to characters who are supposed to be anthro.

in order to be allowed a post needs to contain at least one subject character who displays a distinct non-human feature. abstractions of normal human features do not count, by extension normal humans with colourful skin does not count (see: Simpsons characters, Equestria Girls characters, every other series with technicolor humans). simplifications of normal human features do not count, by extension a character simply lacking a feature such as a nose or fingers does not count (see: Krillin, Animal Crossing humans).

and certainly a character is not considered relevant just because they "are" an alien or whatever.

secretsnake said:
Reddit’s mascot, Snoo, is literally an alien. A humanoid alien in the fact into shaped human, but is not human. It does not look human. If Marvin the Martian and Queen Tyr'ahnee are allowed here, there is no justification on removing Snoo.

This is hypocrisy. “How difficult it is for a janitor” my ass. This site is so biased and almost no one ever has to answer for any wrongdoing or abuse of power. Just wanted to post porn, it’s not complicated. Snoo looks less human than Link. It’s not fair.

As far as I can tell, the only other time you've ever accused anybody of wrongdoing or abuse of power was in topic #47019, another thread which established that you don't understand e621's policies related to humans.

Link gets approvals that Snoo doesn't for very obvious nonhuman traits that can't just be explained away by a cynic saying things like "it's bodypaint" or "it's a cartoony oversimplification of a human".

If you think you have a better policy that'd include as many furry characters as possible and exclude as many humans as possible, then feel free to suggest it.

secretsnake said:
This is hypocrisy. “How difficult it is for a janitor” my ass. This site is so biased and almost no one ever has to answer for any wrongdoing or abuse of power. Just wanted to post porn, it’s not complicated. Snoo looks less human than Link. It’s not fair.

A difference in perspective does not constitute an abuse of power. The deletion was the good-faith belief of the staff member. If you disagree, you've been told who to discuss the matter with.

If you want human and barely non-human porn, then I have great news; half the internet will gladly serve that interest. This site is not one of them. We're not interested in letting every edge case through; we have to draw a line, & this is where it is. We're far more likely to nuke elves, Ganondorf, & quarians than move in the other direction.

We don't accept "but what about" as an argument; if you think something is against our rules, then flag it & we'll review it. I suspect you want us to be less strict & not more strict, in which case that's simply not happening, & you're going to have to make peace with that.

As for NMNY not responding promptly, dealing with a constant stream of complaints leaves them understandably very busy. There's millions of users sending them messages; if you're expecting prompt responses, I'd keep that in mind.

If your argument is a lack of consistency, then flag the posts you feel are as against our uploading guidelines as the deleted post & come back if the flags are dismissed.

watsit said:
To be clear, whether something is allowed here is not based on who the character is, their lore or what they generally look like in official media or most fanart, but what they appear to be in any given post. If a solo Marvin the Martian post doesn't look human in one post, and does look human in another post, the latter post will be deleted and the former can stay (subject to other guidelines).

I better not find a single image of Link or Zelda wearing earmuffs and covering the one thing that makes them “site relevant” then.

aacafah said:
As for NMNY not responding promptly, dealing with a constant stream of complaints leaves them understandably very busy. There's millions of users sending them messages; if you're expecting prompt responses, I'd keep that in mind.

If your argument is a lack of consistency, then flag the posts you feel are as against our uploading guidelines as the deleted post & come back if the flags are dismissed.

Not entirely blaming NMNY for ignoring me. I entirely blame the guy that redirected me to him instead of answering for themselves. Having a coy little message saying “rawr not my problem, go bitch to someone else but not me, the guy who removed your post” was anger inducing and the fact that person is allowed any authority is baffling. I could do a better job because I can at least explain my reasoning for my actions unlike a certain janitor on this site.

lafcadio said:
As far as I can tell, the only other time you've ever accused anybody of wrongdoing or abuse of power was in topic #47019, another thread which established that you don't understand e621's policies related to humans.

Link gets approvals that Snoo doesn't for very obvious nonhuman traits that can't just be explained away by a cynic saying things like "it's bodypaint" or "it's a cartoony oversimplification of a human".

If you think you have a better policy that'd include as many furry characters as possible and exclude as many humans as possible, then feel free to suggest it.

Yeah my policy is “how the fuck are elves and orcs allowed on a furry porn site?” They’re not furry. They’re humans with funny ears or funny teeth and green skin unless they’re pig-like orcs.

What amount of brainpower led to that compromise?

First off, PSA, you can just hit Reply & whatever you're replying to will be added to the end of your current text box; you don't need to make 3 different posts to reply to 3 different people.

secretsnake said:
I better not find a single image of Link or Zelda wearing earmuffs and covering the one thing that makes them “site relevant” then.

We make mistakes, & many staff have come and gone over the years. Aside from grandfathered content, no approval is final.

I've gotten a post deleted before accidentally because I used it as an example when asking a fellow staff member a question; if you see something against the rules, flag it & we will review the matter.

secretsnake said:
What amount of brainpower led to that compromise?

To reiterate:

lafcadio said:
If you think you have a better policy that'd include as many furry characters as possible and exclude as many humans as possible, then feel free to suggest it.

If you can think of something better, that is consistent & easy to convey, then please share it with the class. If not, then it would appear the answer to your question is "at least the same amount of brainpower you have". If this rule is a problem, be part of the solution.

secretsnake said:
I could do a better job because I can at least explain my reasoning for my actions unlike a certain janitor on this site.

Mairo had been a janitor for 5 years before you even made your account; he's explained the same thing time & time again, & decided he's not willing to continue doing so, especially when those he repeatedly attempted to explain matters to ignored him & took it to NMNY anyways. I can understand the desire to just cut out the middleman. He's perfectly capable of speaking for himself; he's just not interested in doing so when he feels his words fall on deaf ears.

As for the message itself, we've since collectively discussed how we want to converse with users, & I believe Mairo stopped using that copy-paste message at least months ago.

Finally, we've restructured our staff to appoint heads of staff for both our moderators & our janitors. This should help minimize bottlenecks & improve response rate.

secretsnake said:
Yeah my policy is “how the fuck are elves and orcs allowed on a furry porn site?” They’re not furry. They’re humans with funny ears or funny teeth and green skin unless they’re pig-like orcs.

What amount of brainpower led to that compromise?

If you think certain species should just be completely off-limits because this is "a furry porn site" then why are you uploading literal Reddit mascots? Clearly those aren't traditionally furry, but you think they should be allowed anyway.

An answer like "just ban all elves and orcs" might seem fine to you if you're only looking at a handful of posts every so often, but:

post #5677415
These are elves, per the character lore.

I won't even need to pull up an example for orcs because, as you immediately recognize, some orcs are visibly furry.

So then, we're back to the initial problem: there needs to be a way to determine whether or not a character is human based on visuals rather than established lore. As it just so happens, elf ears are not a human trait. We also can't exactly just cook up an exception for elf ears, as this feature isn't exclusive to elves either!

post #196227

You only make these kinds of threads when you, personally, are affected. Your reaction is clearly colored by the expectation that your posts should be okay, even when clearly you aren't keeping the uploading guidelines in mind, and explaining any of this to you is useless because you just don't care.

Even if we adopt a maximalist policy where anything that isn't traditionally "furry" is deleted, that includes most of your upload history. user:secretsnake -anthro -feral

Honestly? Chill out.