Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions
The bulk update request #11468 is pending approval.
create implication dominant_femboy (123) -> femboy (191339)
create implication dominant_femboy (123) -> dominant (190032)
create alias josou_seme (1868) -> dominant_femboy (123)
Reason: The first two are a given, and josou_seme very literally translates to "girly_dominant" and hosts almost 1500 posts already so it's a good jump off point to populate this tag
nin10dope said:
Reason: The first two are a given, and josou_seme very literally translates to "girly_dominant" and hosts almost 1500 posts already so it's a good jump off point to populate this tag
As mentioned in the other thread, the kind of tag people want, and how josou seme is described with 3 of its 5 examples, is not a dominant femboy in the way dominant is used here. Josou seme also covers assertive femboys and femboy tops, basically any femboy that's not the stereotypical whimpering cock slut, so aliasing it to dominant_femboy, which itself will imply dominant, will create more mistags than not, and leave people without a tag that they want and will need redoing.
Aliasing dominant_femboy to femboy (since most attempted uses will not likely be applicable to dominant) and aliasing josou_seme to something like assertive_femboy or femboy_penetrating would make more sense to me. Though x_penetrating and dominant_x aren't really under the umbrella of assertive_x, so something won't work depending on how it goes.
Updated
Thank you for your input.
watsit said:
Aliasing dominant_femboy to femboy
It would be greatly appreciated if you stop dragging your feet with this specifically, it hasn't even been a day that this tag was made valid again and you're already calling for it's re-aliasing for your own satisfaction.
I don't know what your preferred definition of dominant is, but all five examples on top of the josou_seme show signs of dominance by a femboy. "The kind of tag people want" without any fellow voices of disapproval sounds like trying to champion your own wishes as the people's and feels incredibly disingenuous. Josou_seme clearly and unambiguously states that it is a tag for dominance carried out by a girly character, your repeated claims that it covers other almost-dominant aspects are unfounded and incorrect as explained by the wiki itself. The same can be said about your claim that "it will cause more mistags" is a logical fallacy used to resist any change and you don't even supply reliable sources to back it up.
Everything you keep repeating are "if this then this" fallacies that you repeatedly tack on that they "make more sense to you" is exasperating and played out, so I would greatly appreciate you actually backing up all of these psychic warnings of the ramifications.
nin10dope said:
It would be greatly appreciated if you stop dragging your feet with this specifically, it hasn't even been a day that this tag was made valid again and you're already calling for it's re-aliasing for your own satisfaction.
Pointing out an issue with the proposal and making an alternative suggestion isn't "dragging my feet". I didn't even down vote that previous thread. You don't need to take it personally when someone disagrees with you, and can just let people voice their opinions and make their own alternative suggestions for people to discuss and the staff to make their own decisions.
nin10dope said:
I don't know what your preferred definition of dominant is, but all five examples on top of the josou_seme show signs of dominance by a femboy.
Dominant as in the other side of submissive, from the "dominance and submission" aspect of BDSM. Where someone asserts control over another, a character dominating another into submission. Holding someone by a leash, for example, or holding them to the wall or floor to prevent them from getting away. 3 of the examples in the josou_seme wiki objectively do not contain these aspects of domination. Talking dirty and penetration aren't domination, as they aren't by themselves a form of control over another. If penetration and dirty talk counted, it would apply to the vast majority of the site where it wouldn't serve any benefit, let alone would be a problem for people that want to look for actual dominance and submission content.
nin10dope said:
"The kind of tag people want" without any fellow voices of disapproval sounds like trying to champion your own wishes as the people's and feels incredibly disingenuous.
You only made this BUR three hours ago, and there are currently two other downvotes besides me, for a total of 3 down, 0 up, and 1 meh. Two of those three downvotes gave meh votes (not downvotes) on the previous thread, which includes me. FWIW, I didn't vote on that thread because I could see the arguments being made and withheld a more definitive stance, as there were ways I could see it going that I wouldn't disagree with. It wasn't until it was bumped back up recently that I gave it a meh vote, because if someone can come up with a properly named tag that better indicates what people want (a non-passive femboy type), I could see it making sense to alias to that instead and it would be necessary to do that unaliasing first. But as I can't think of one and no one has yet come up with one, in the face of this suggestion and given how misused dominant tags generally are, that realias would be the option that results in the fewest mistags.
Just because you may not like or agree with me doesn't mean no one agrees with me or that I'm necessarily wrong about it. Nor am I saying my suggestion is the best. It's just the best alternative I can come up with at this time. If other people make their own suggestions, I can revise mine with what makes sense to me.
nin10dope said:
Josou_seme clearly and unambiguously states that it is a tag for dominance carried out by a girly character
That is what the wiki says, yes. But there are plenty of posts it's tagged on that dominant doesn't not apply to, including most of its own examples, where I would actively remove it if I notice it and get a moderator to take a look if people add it back.
nin10dope said:
Everything you keep repeating are "if this then this" fallacies that you repeatedly tack on that they "make more sense to you" is exasperating and played out, so I would greatly appreciate you actually backing up all of these psychic warnings of the ramifications.
It's called an opinion, something these forums and BUR requests are for us users to give.
BDSM is Bondage, Discipline, Sadistic, Mashochism
nin10dope said:
BDSM is Bondage, Discipline, Sadistic, Mashochism
It's more complex than that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM
BDSM is a variety of often erotic practices or roleplaying involving bondage, discipline, dominance and submission, sadomasochism, and other related interpersonal dynamics. [...]The initialism BDSM is first recorded in a Usenet post from 1991,[2] and is interpreted as a combination of the abbreviations B/D (Bondage and Discipline), D/s (Dominance and submission), and S/M (Sadism and Masochism).
You know what else is more complex? Dominant tags
They don't require bdsm levels of kinkiness to be applied.
nin10dope said:
You know what else is more complex? Dominant tags
They don't require bdsm levels of kinkiness to be applied.
But it does require something more than penetration and dirty_talk. Assertive isn't enough for dominant either; in fact I remember some discussions where people wanted to use dominant in situations that weren't "heavy" enough for it to apply and resulted in assertive tags to be used instead (I think it was dominant_female/assertive_female more specifically).
watsit said:
Dominant as in the other side of submissive, from the "dominance and submission" aspect of BDSM. Where someone asserts control over another, a character dominating another into submission. Holding someone by a leash, for example, or holding them to the wall or floor to prevent them from getting away. 3 of the examples in the josou_seme wiki objectively do not contain these aspects of domination. Talking dirty and penetration aren't domination, as they aren't by themselves a form of control over another. If penetration and dirty talk counted, it would apply to the vast majority of the site where it wouldn't serve any benefit, let alone would be a problem for people that want to look for actual dominance and submission content.
I would really recommend looking at how dominant is both actively used and how vague the wiki is.
Physical contact is not a necessity, and it can even be conducted anonymously over the telephone, email or other messaging system.
A general test for domination/submission is whether there is an imbalance of power, whether it be real (held at spear point) or permitted (holding a leash).
Tag also applies if the theme of domination is present in the image.
That's very very vague. If long-distance acts are explicitly permitted by the wiki I'm not sure why physical restraint is necessary. It also does not imply bdsm or require bdsm elements.
None of the josou_seme examples would look out of place next to the results of dominant.
regsmutt said:
I would really recommend looking at how dominant is both actively used and how vague the wiki is.
I have, which is why I know how overused and misused it is. Even in the context of its vague description, it ends up on plenty of posts that don't have any kind of power imbalance or theme of domination. Given the 5 examples in josou_seme, for instance:
post #4443011 There's a theme of domination given the binding gear, and power imbalance as the one character appears stuck on the floor at the mercy of another. Dominant applies.
post #3420346 A femboy penetrating another male. No theme of domination/power imbalance, no apparent control over another. Just some dirty_talk, dominant doesn't apply.
post #2597909 A femboy holding the leash that's attached to another character, holding them as they penetrate him. Clear control over another, even if they're the one being penetrated; power_bottom and dominant apply.
post #4180424 An under-desk view of a post-oral sex. Some dirty talk calling the viewer a slut, but no domination/power imbalance or control. Dominant doesn't apply.
post #3680622 A view of a character presenting themselves, completely alone and talking to the viewer. No theme of domination or apparent power imbalance or control, dominant doesn't apply (the commanding tone of dialog may warrant assertive, though).
regsmutt said:
That's very very vague. If long-distance acts are explicitly permitted by the wiki I'm not sure why physical restraint is necessary. It also does not imply bdsm or require bdsm elements.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply physical restraint is necessary, just some form of control over another. As this is a visual-based medium and dialog is generally not considered when tagging, it's difficult to find instances of non-physical control, but I don't deny it's possible; I guess hypnosis may count, though I think that's purposely kept separate for tagging purposes (might be wrong).
nin10dope said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_and_submission
Anything specific you want to draw attention to?
The dominant and submissive relations pertain to two people who play with psychological, emotional, and/or physical dominance. Most of the time in sexual relationships like this there is some sort of power exchange through their physical interaction.
[...]
The term power exchange refers to the empowerment of the dominant by the submissive's surrender to his/ her control.
This seems to align with what I'm saying, and the issue it would create by aliasing away josou_seme to dominant_femboy when it's used plenty for scenarios that aren't apparently dominant/submissive.
watsit said:
I have, which is why I know how overused and misused it is. Even in the context of its vague description, it ends up on plenty of posts that don't have any kind of power imbalance or theme of domination. Given the 5 examples in josou_seme, for instance:
post #4443011 There's a theme of domination given the binding gear, and power imbalance as the one character appears stuck on the floor at the mercy of another. Dominant applies.
post #3420346 A femboy penetrating another male. No theme of domination/power imbalance, no apparent control over another. Just some dirty_talk, dominant doesn't apply.
post #2597909 A femboy holding the leash that's attached to another character, holding them as they penetrate him. Clear control over another, even if they're the one being penetrated; power_bottom and dominant apply.
post #4180424 An under-desk view of a post-oral sex. Some dirty talk calling the viewer a slut, but no domination/power imbalance or control. Dominant doesn't apply.
post #3680622 A view of a character presenting themselves, completely alone and talking to the viewer. No theme of domination or apparent power imbalance or control, dominant doesn't apply (the commanding tone of dialog may warrant assertive, though).Sorry, I didn't mean to imply physical restraint is necessary, just some form of control over another. As this is a visual-based medium and dialog is generally not considered when tagging, it's difficult to find instances of non-physical control, but I don't deny it's possible; I guess hypnosis may count, though I think that's purposely kept separate for tagging purposes (might be wrong).
Comparing those images to the first five results on page 750 (to make sure I'm looking at stuff that's been allowed to hold the tag for a while)-
post #1921214 This is just a standing sex position. Complete mistag.
post #1921209 BDSM, but no dominant body language. Still, probably fine.
post #1921146 Again, just standing sex, this time with a notable size difference.
post #1921105 I have no idea who is supposed to be dominant here.
post #1921072 Size difference and collars.
4/5 have less to do with domination than the weakest of the josou_seme examples.
The next five are the same story and this pattern repeats no matter what page I go to. I'm almost leaning towards aliasing the whole mess because there is significantly less of a cohesive theme than josou_seme.
regsmutt said:
Comparing those images to the first five results on page 750 (to make sure I'm looking at stuff that's been allowed to hold the tag for a while)-
Not sure "allowed" is the right terminology (implying that it's known and considered correct), plenty of posts slip through the cracks since only a relative few of us take an active role to fix, and some posts have the tag added after it was originally posted when it was most visible, so even fewer people will notice. And given how often it's misused like that, it's too daunting for most of us to go on a real cleaning spree, especially when people will add it back because they think smaller_penetrated=big_dom_small_sub (which implies dominant) or penetration=dominant or presenting=submissive.
I think it's just another case like humanoid. Too overused and it's an unwinnable battle to really fix, but it's not an option to get rid of it wholesale so we endeavor to do our best to stem the tide.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominant
The arbitrary idea that dominant partners in sex have to have some hard control/exude control of the other isn't the only usage of the word.
Domination and Submission may have added themselves into the BDSM acronym, but the concepts of those traits have no requirements to be applied to people and situations. They are often completely independent from bdsm. This is consistently proven by the common understanding that people are constantly demonstrating with how they apply the tag and use the word, even taking into account how a lot of people confuse domination with topping.
nin10dope said:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominant
The arbitrary idea that dominant partners in sex have to have some hard control/exude control of the other isn't the only usage of the word.
How would you redefine the tag's use for this site then, so that it covers most of what josou_seme does while not applying to penetration/sex or dirty_talk more broadly?
